Tank Comparisons...again

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Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Dane » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:57 pm

So, this is a rehash of a frequently discussed topic, but honestly, I haven't been able to find anything up to date here, on EJ, Tankspot, etc.

The reason this came up is because my co-tank is a DK, and he's made several statements about how with the advent of different masteries, DK's are on the cusp of eclipsing all other tanks...seeing as warriors and paladins are reaching block cap, and further mastery beyond that will be useless, but DK's can stack it infinitely, and it will keep providing them with a benefit.

I've tried doing the maths here, but I just don't have a head for it...so let's hear what the experts think. Would I be better off shelving my pally in favor of my blood DK alt? Where DO the various tanks stand in comparison to each other, post 4.2 release? How does the future look for each of us?
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Levantine » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:13 pm

Wat? Your co tank is smoking something. Everything I've seen has stated that DK's are in a rough spot because of inverse scaling with avoidance causing them to go splat when they get avoidance streaks.

Also, Warrior mastery doesn't cap.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:42 am

Levantine wrote:Wat? Your co tank is smoking something. Everything I've seen has stated that DK's are in a rough spot because of inverse scaling with avoidance causing them to go splat when they get avoidance streaks.

Also, Warrior mastery doesn't cap.

Theoretically, warrior mastery could cap... if you managed to max out your crit block chance, but I'm sure that would require far more mastery than is obtainable (and if not, that would make warriors seriously OP tankwise.)
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:06 am

I think what your esteemed colleague is missing is that once we cap mastery, we can stack pure avoidance. That's a luxury that other tanks, and DKs in particular, simply can't afford.

Mastery is great, but avoidance is even better.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Worldie » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:09 am

Objectively speaking the differences in efficience between the 4 tank classes right now are so small that not even top 100 guilds are privileging a class against another.
Wanting to be precise, DKs are built up to take more damage than other tanks (and they do), which is counterbalanced by their mastery and self heal being a bit superior to the absorb / block of other tanks.
In order to keep taking on average the same damage of other tanks, they have to increase their mastery with each tier, something other tanks don't have to do since war/pala's mastery "caps" and they can stack pure avoidance, while druid mastery is quite unimpressive and they don't stack it as much as DKs do.

Tell your DK friend to stop smoking crack and get real. All tanks are the same and noone sane of mind would ditch one char for another due to the class.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Darielle » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:52 am

DK's and Druids are both disadvantaged by not being able to guarantee blocks, and relatively terribly scaling Masteries. It typically isn't that big a deal, but on fights like Heroic Beth where she just swings for crazy, crazy amounts, it absolutely comes into play.

The chances of DK's and Druids magically "ecplising" Block tanks because of "uncapped Mastery" is just ... not going to happen.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kerriodos » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:15 am

If anything, the reality is that DK's are currently the weakest of the tanks for hardmode progression. My co-tank recently sat his DK in favor of his warrior, and this seems to be a trend in a number of the top guilds. Most of them cite poor scaling (their mastery doesn't scale with the size of the hit taken as well as block does, and armor from shields is quickly outstripping armor from blood presence) and a requirement to work much harder at their job to do it half as well.

Subjectively, from my perspective, about 90% of our wipes due to tank death were from the DK being splattered, not myself. This has eased up taking a warrior, even a less geared one, as far as I can tell.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby theckhd » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:47 am

I'm of the opinion that paladins are actually a little too strong right now, mainly thanks to how trivial it is to block cap for us. Not so overpowered that you'd necessarily sit a non-paladin tank for an undergeared paladin, but enough that given a choice between two tanks of roughly equivalent gear and skill, the paladin is almost always the strongest choice.

Mel has much stronger and more detailed opinions on this than I do though.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kerriodos » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:21 am

theckhd wrote:I'm of the opinion that paladins are actually a little too strong right now, mainly thanks to how trivial it is to block cap for us. Not so overpowered that you'd necessarily sit a non-paladin tank for an undergeared paladin, but enough that given a choice between two tanks of roughly equivalent gear and skill, the paladin is almost always the strongest choice.

Mel has much stronger and more detailed opinions on this than I do though.


I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. It certainly doesn't help that Ardent Defender is just begging for nerfs on fights like Heroic Majordomo.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby lythac » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:31 am

Kerriodos wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. It certainly doesn't help that Ardent Defender is just begging for nerfs on fights like Heroic Majordomo.

I thought -
Fandral now gains energy when his Flame Scythe hits fewer than 7 targets. The amount gained increases as fewer targets are hit.

was to nerf AD?

(I haven't read the fight so... yeah)
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Kerriodos » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:04 am

lythac wrote:
Kerriodos wrote:I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. It certainly doesn't help that Ardent Defender is just begging for nerfs on fights like Heroic Majordomo.

I thought -
Fandral now gains energy when his Flame Scythe hits fewer than 7 targets. The amount gained increases as fewer targets are hit.

was to nerf AD?

(I haven't read the fight so... yeah)


It is, but with the right strat it's still usable. Hitting only me with AD up, he instantly gains about 50% of his energy, which would be a problem if we tried to soak multiple slashes, but we only do one per scorpion phase then go right back into cat for a little over a minute and a half.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Sagara » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:53 am

Funnily, I just realized how DK are on the knife's edge. Our DK Tank got crushed like a bug (ahah) repeatedly on Beth 10N lest weekend. Every time he went upstairs he lived roughly 30-45 seconds before getting *SMAAAAAAAAAAAASHED*
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Fetzie » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:41 am

Sagara wrote:Funnily, I just realized how DK are on the knife's edge. Our DK Tank got crushed like a bug (ahah) repeatedly on Beth 10N lest weekend. Every time he went upstairs he lived roughly 30-45 seconds before getting *SMAAAAAAAAAAAASHED*


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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Lieris » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:02 am

Kerriodos wrote:
theckhd wrote:I'm of the opinion that paladins are actually a little too strong right now, mainly thanks to how trivial it is to block cap for us. Not so overpowered that you'd necessarily sit a non-paladin tank for an undergeared paladin, but enough that given a choice between two tanks of roughly equivalent gear and skill, the paladin is almost always the strongest choice.

Mel has much stronger and more detailed opinions on this than I do though.


I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. It certainly doesn't help that Ardent Defender is just begging for nerfs on fights like Heroic Majordomo.


What with it being kind of crappy in T11 (mainly because barely anything felt dangerous to tank), it's nice that AD has finally become useful on most fights in Firelands either through mechanics (Saber Lash and Decimation Blade) or possible tank deaths (Rhyolith P2 and Bethtilac P2). I would be very weary about any nerfs at this point.
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Re: Tank Comparisons...again

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:07 am

Last tier paladin tanks were only able to block cap with about 165k hp and 30% avoidance raid buffed (vs 88), having to use every socket and trinket for mastery. This tier they can block cap with 205k hp and 35% avoidance, being able to use most sockets for stamina but still at least one trinket for mastery. Next tier I guess if nothing's changed (which honestly, I think it will) we'll be able to block cap with 250k hp and 40% avoidance, using double stam trinkets if we want (though tb trink will probably still be OP). Mastery may be (easily) cappable for us, but that doesn't really mean a whole lot, and it's already apparent that being able to block cap without making major stamina sacrifices is pretty hard to balance bosses against without making them have the chance of gibbing the other tank classes, given that their masteries are still very much probability based.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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