Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:24 pm

well if you think about it, where do all teh warlock demons come from?
not to mention thier mounts?

there could be as many as 9 worlds or seperate places that warlocks on azeroth summon demons from.
that is JUST the ones we can summon, ie servants like the imp and mounts (felsteed/dreadsteed)

add in all the ones that we CANT summon and....yeah Sargeras would have his hands full trying to keep everything in check, esp with Archimonde and Kil'Jaden dead/banished from azeroth.

really did we kill either Archi or KJ though? in order to "kill" a demon we would have to do to where their physical body is in the nether and kill it there (think having to go to firelands to down rag instead of just where he was summoned in MC)
all we are killing here in azeroth is their presence. when they die here, they just go back to their body in the nether

but if a demonic race was added, it could be like the demon versions of the dranei.
a small group objected to legion rule, and ran for it.

if you read the lore of the exiled (what dranei means in eredor) then you will learn that the three great chiefs/leaders were KJ, Archi, and Velen. Velen opposed Sargeras and fled, leading all the Eredor that agreed, which became the Dranei we have today.

i honestly think if we get a demonic race, it will be in this fashion.
edit: which would help tie in Sargeras trying to come back to azeroth, seeing as not only are the dranei here, but also a renegade group of demons that broke free of his command....

im calling it now, we will get a demonic race the xpack that we fight the dark titan!
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Passionario » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:29 am

Mcduffie wrote:Have we considered a "neutral" faction? Like, what if you were "race x." And the starting zone ended with you choosing which side you wished to join, Alliance or Horde. Their home city would be a sanctuary, like Dalaran.

Ehhh? Ehhh??

If I had my way, I'd make every race a "race x", and make all factions "neutral". This way, no matter who you rolled - Human, Tauren, Ethereal, Wolvar - you'd have an opportunity to join the Alliance, the Horde, the Argent Crusade or the Syndicate. Of course, certain factions would be more prejudiced against certain races, but this is already present in the game: Aldor BEs and Draenei Scryers start at a lower rep than they would if they made the opposite choice.

Of course, some factions would be naturally opposed or friendly towards each other. However, instead of making them automatic antagonists that mirror each other in terms of in-game perks (Alliance/Horde, Aldor/Scryers, Oracles/Frenzyheart), I'd make interfaction relations vary from zone to zone and from patch to patch. This way, Earthen Ring and Steamwheedle Cartel could be working on the same project in Desolace (doing the quest of one faction also boosts your rep with the other), yet be at odds in Swamp of Sorrows (doing one faction's quests hurts your rep with the other one), or be friends in patch 4.2 and fall out in patch 4.5.

Furthermore, I'd replace the single-number reputation with multiple bars (similar to Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect games, but with more than two options), so that you could be anything from a "beloved friend" to "worthy rival" to "despised yet useful turncoat" to "feared and obeyed taskmaster" and everything in between.

...Of course, that would never work in WoW. In this system, people would have to choose their enemies and friends carefully and actually consider whether a given quest is worth doing, instead of adopting a "gogogo, gotta catch them ALL" mentality. Not to mention all the PvP complications - right now, a Forsaken who is exalted with Ramkahen can look at a likewise exalted Gnome and instantly go into "RED MEANS KILL KILL KILL" mode, while in my system, he would have to hire a Worgen assassin allied with, say, Thorium Brotherhood to do the dirty deed for him. In other words, people would have to think, and that would be a Bad Thing.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Mcduffie » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:33 am

Passionario wrote:
Mcduffie wrote:Have we considered a "neutral" faction? Like, what if you were "race x." And the starting zone ended with you choosing which side you wished to join, Alliance or Horde. Their home city would be a sanctuary, like Dalaran.

Ehhh? Ehhh??

If I had my way, I'd make every race a "race x", and make all factions "neutral". This way, no matter who you rolled - Human, Tauren, Ethereal, Wolvar - you'd have an opportunity to join the Alliance, the Horde, the Argent Crusade or the Syndicate. Of course, certain factions would be more prejudiced against certain races, but this is already present in the game: Aldor BEs and Draenei Scryers start at a lower rep than they would if they made the opposite choice.

Of course, some factions would be naturally opposed or friendly towards each other. However, instead of making them automatic antagonists that mirror each other in terms of in-game perks (Alliance/Horde, Aldor/Scryers, Oracles/Frenzyheart), I'd make interfaction relations vary from zone to zone and from patch to patch. This way, Earthen Ring and Steamwheedle Cartel could be working on the same project in Desolace (doing the quest of one faction also boosts your rep with the other), yet be at odds in Swamp of Sorrows (doing one faction's quests hurts your rep with the other one), or be friends in patch 4.2 and fall out in patch 4.5.

Furthermore, I'd replace the single-number reputation with multiple bars (similar to Paragon/Renegade system in Mass Effect games, but with more than two options), so that you could be anything from a "beloved friend" to "worthy rival" to "despised yet useful turncoat" to "feared and obeyed taskmaster" and everything in between.

...Of course, that would never work in WoW. In this system, people would have to choose their enemies and friends carefully and actually consider whether a given quest is worth doing, instead of adopting a "gogogo, gotta catch them ALL" mentality. Not to mention all the PvP complications - right now, a Forsaken who is exalted with Ramkahen can look at a likewise exalted Gnome and instantly go into "RED MEANS KILL KILL KILL" mode, while in my system, he would have to hire a Worgen assassin allied with, say, Thorium Brotherhood to do the dirty deed for him. In other words, people would have to think, and that would be a Bad Thing.

You, my friend, stand at the edge of greatness. This is a fantastic idea. But, as you said, would never work in WoW. To support your idea, think about the BE rogue that helped Varian Wrynn. Sure, she's out of her element, but she chose her side. Right now, WoW is a game of lack of choices.

You level up with a token faction that hates the other faction, and can never learn the language of said opposed faction.

Once leveled up, you PvP against said faction. Even when you may not agree with your own faction's position.

You kill raid bosses that "neutral" factions tell you to kill, yet you can only do those raid bosses with your own major faction.

Blizz has a strange dichotomy of showing horde and alliance getting along a little in their lore, but not getting along AT ALL between player to player. When your only interaction option with an opposed faction member is "KILL"; that's usually the option you take.

There are numerous levels of faction connections, race connections, and class connections that overlap in very interesting ways within WoW lore. However, Blizzard has chosen to completely limit the player's experience by railroading said player down one of two factions.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Torias » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:03 am

I think the problem that would arise here would be for all the depth and breadth of player/world interaction a system like that would offer, there would simply end up being cookie-cutter faction builds and development paths to pick up X, Y and Z whilst balancing your reps appropriately, after which point the system becomes more of a frustration as it means you'll be arbitrarily punished by losing access to Some Cool Thing if you violate one of the now numerous ways in which everything is strictly interconnected.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's really something more suited to a single-player RPG or if it were going to be part of an MMO would have to be part of the genetics and have the rest of the systems built around it.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby alayire » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:26 am

I haven't really played as many MMO's but I think Blizzards idea of 2 opposing player factions was an innovation at that time? And for the majority of the time, the driving force behind the game?
I sincerely doubt they will drop this unless they produce a different game altogether.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Mcduffie » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:37 am

alayire wrote:I haven't really played as many MMO's but I think Blizzards idea of 2 opposing player factions was an innovation at that time? And for the majority of the time, the driving force behind the game?
I sincerely doubt they will drop this unless they produce a different game altogether.

Funny you should mention that. They currently are working on producing a completely different game altogether.

Torias wrote:I think the problem that would arise here would be for all the depth and breadth of player/world interaction a system like that would offer, there would simply end up being cookie-cutter faction builds and development paths to pick up X, Y and Z whilst balancing your reps appropriately, after which point the system becomes more of a frustration as it means you'll be arbitrarily punished by losing access to Some Cool Thing if you violate one of the now numerous ways in which everything is strictly interconnected.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, but it's really something more suited to a single-player RPG or if it were going to be part of an MMO would have to be part of the genetics and have the rest of the systems built around it.


I honestly have no idea what you're saying. But here's my attempt at sorting it out and giving a coherent reply.

If there are "some cool things" that you want, then join the faction that has your "some cool things." As far as gear goes, just keep the stats balanced between different factions, and apply different textures for the different factions. Much like the horde vs. alliance TOC gear that was handed out. Let's say there's a Blood Elf two handed axe that looks like a wicked awesome scythe. The opposite of it could be a Forsaken axe that looks like an amalgam of bone, sinew, and flesh, that also has some sort of dragon tooth for a blade. The aesthetics would be their only difference.

So, instead of everyone being able to get EVERYTHING; players will have unique appearances based on the many factions they've had to decide between.

Your negative to the proposed system has suddenly become a positive. Thanks for contributing.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Torias » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:33 am

Yes, I was a bit incoherent, probably shouldn't make posts when I've literally just got out of bed. No need to be a dick about it though.

My point was that if there was any imbalance at all in terms of speed/ease of acquisition or quality of rewards a sizable chunk of the player base is just going to take the path of least resistance at which point the people developing it are putting a huge amount of effort into making something mostly meaningless. And balancing something as intricate as what was proposed would be impossible.

And if you make it just about aesthetics I honestly think it's MORE likely that people will just go with whatever is quickest. You've taken out the only compelling reason to favour "harder" factions over "easier" ones. Or maybe I totally underestimate how much people actually care about how their gear looks since I personally couldn't give much of a crap, it all gets replaced in raids any way.

Frankly, the system is just too complicated. What sounds cool would inevitably just get annoying after you've put up with it every day for a year. Matrix Online had something a lot like this, in fact, and it's easy to see how successful that was.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 4:06 am

I can guarantee you that the downfall of Matrix Online was based on more than just rep factions... same with any other failed MMO. Many of those failed MMOs had some rather interesting/unique concepts that made them fun for awhile, but one or two "awesome things" does not a successful MMO make.

Examples:

Aion: Flying combat, 3rd party controlled zones (the different areas in the core that could be controlled by either player faction or a neutral third faction.)
Downsides: Developers heavily favored one faction, making things "easier" to obtain, causing faction imbalances to an extreme scale, and even after acknowledging it, choosing to do nothing about it. It went so far as lvl 30 characters being able to EASILY kill lvl 50 characters (that were fighting back.) Also was quite the grindfest (as most asian produced MMOs tend to be.)

FFXI: Ability to choose your "primary" faction regardless of race. Able to play all classes from one character (leveled separately.) Having a FF theme.
Downsides: XP loss/de-leveling (through death). Also a grindfest (though remarkably less so now than originally thanks to in-game time "daily kill quests.") Inability to effectively solo past the mid-teens (made easier by allowing "level syncing" within a party so you can find groups regardless of level.) Having to rez at your "home point" (effectively a hearthstone location) or find someone in the zone that can rez you.

Those are only two (and admittedly, FFXI is still going strong despite my perceived issues with it, but has never been nor will ever be a "WoW killer.") Many others never even really got much of a chance to build up thanks to the number of bugs/issues upon launch (which tends to kill more MMOs than anything else.) Whether good or bad, WoW has set a bar that people have to obtain right out of the box (despite WoW having had a number of years to reach the same point.)


TL;DR - Rep factions are likely only a small piece of the puzzle for why an MMO might fail. And I think a more in depth version (a la Passionario) would be fun to play with (though annoying from a "completionist" standpoint.)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby alayire » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:18 am

Mcduffie wrote:Funny you should mention that. They currently are working on producing a completely different game altogether.
witch is not WOW or WOW related as they have mentioned already. so unless they will start work on WOW2 ..

Mcduffie wrote:So, instead of everyone being able to get EVERYTHING; players will have unique appearances based on the many factions they've had to decide between.
I kinda agree with his points however. you are talking about items, he's talking about the story: quests more specifically, storyline etc. You can make the same items just looking different true, but you can't have the story be the same for each faction because then you really don't have different factions.

what he's saying is people always find ways to skim their way and do easiest/faster thing. if one faction provides say easier way to attain certain items(that are obtainable to other factions as well, just way harder) or easier to do quests for example, easier to gain faction points guess what .. most people will pick that faction. or some faction has some bonuses that are imbalanced, or even worse a combination of such sort. the more there are the harder it will be to keep track of. Of course you can make it so the differences are not that big, but again where do you draw the line. the thing is .. you really need to provide something palpable for people to make a choice when picking between a bunch of factions otherwise there is no real choice.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:34 am

Just something I thought I'd add... if they did go with a rep system like that, it would behoove them to add a warddrobe function if they want people to grab certain items/gear (you'd be amazed the lengths that some people will go to look pretty/awesome/scary/etc.) but if it's like it currently is... people will take the path of least resistance because the gear will be replaced anyway (what's the point in having something that looks cool if you can only effectively use it for a couple of levels?)
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Aerron » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:35 am

alayire wrote:I haven't really played as many MMO's but I think Blizzards idea of 2 opposing player factions was an innovation at that time?


Not really. Mythic had 3 opposing factions in DAoC. There were a few others that went the two faction route. SW:G did it a little differently in that they had 2 opposing factions, but you were allowed to choose which you belonged to (and even switch) as the game progressed.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:43 am

really the faction system you are describing is like the one in Fallen Earth

there are 6 main factions, and each faction has their main rival, and 2 allies
they are arranged on a wheel, and as you gain rep with one faction, you gain 1/2 with each allie, and lose the double with that factions rival

for example (i know this ownt make sense but go with it) my main in FE is a rifleman
he going to be an enforcer when he is leveled some more, so he will be a rival to the ChOTA
he will be allied with the Techs and the Lightbringers, and on not-so-friendly terms with the Vistas and the Travelers

as i do missions to gain rep with the Enforcers i will gain or lose rep with the other factions
so if its +20 with Enforcers
Techs - +10
Lightbringers - +10
Vistas - -20
Travelers - -20
ChOTA - -40

the cool thing is if i want to switch from enforcers to chota, i can
i just pick a direction and slowly work my way around the wheel
for example i would start working on my Lightbringer rep, then my Vista, and finally my ChOTA and at that point i would be a ChOTA member, and a kill on sight target for the Enforcers

make sense? (prob not....here is a link to help show wtf im talking about FE factions )

note: the game is rated M...so ya

edit: i just read the site again and i swear i pulled my example out of thin air...not from the site...creepy >.>
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby halabar » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:49 am

I'm wondering if they would really want to add more races to WoW now, given the resources involved in doing so (starting zones, redoing quests again, etc).

It would be easier to add a new hero class, that would leave the starting content alone.

My bet now is on a new hero class with the next expansion.
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby bldavis » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:08 am

given thier previous releases, i would agree
BC - new races
Wrath - Hero Class
Cata - new races
Xpack 4 - hero class?
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Re: Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

Postby Flex » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:12 am

Already too many classes in the game and when combined with the available number of specs it creates a balancing nightmare. I'd probably venture a complete original race design overhaul before a new class or race.
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