[Druid] Bear Discussion

[Devistasion]

huh?
ya i have heard about altoholics anonymous...
no i wont go! i dont have a problem! i swear!

LOL I have a problem... I just don't care.

[cerwillis]

Answering Sherck's questions from the successes thread, as I have recently looked into a number of these. Please correct any wrongness:

-- There seems to be a large threat difference between when you have Enrage available for a trash pack (tab Mangle spam) and when you do not. Is there that large of a difference in AoE threat generation from using a Swipe / Thrash tab Maul approach and a tab Mangle spam with Enrage up?
Do you mean Berserk? That + Magle spam, preferably with a 3x pulv stack is your best threat/dmg rotation, but you cant use it very often. Thrash/Swipe/Maul+Tab Mangle is good for standard AoE in most cases.


-- On that note, what is the threat generation "ranking" of our attacks. since so much is put on tab Mangle spam under Engrage, is Mangle our top threat attack? Swipe? Maul? Mangle only when at 3x Lacerate? 2x Lacerate?
Not an easy question, but basically keep pulv up, keep mangle and thrash up on all targets and stack 3xlac on everything you can.

-- There appears to be a very lack of defensive CDs. Barkskin every 60 sec. Frenzied Regen every 3 min (but glyphed is that even really a defensive CD because it is no longer converting Rage to Health?). Enrage does nothing to increase survivability does it? I am not seeing much to string a chain together with.
Yup thats about it except trinkets. Keeping pulv up helps somewhat in increasing crit/SD procs, as does berserk.

-- I has a 365 weapon so I am not anticpating many threat issues when I start doing 5-man Heroics since many have commented that a good weapon = good threat for a bear? Comments? True? Not True?
I want to say true, but I could see how that might be very wrong.

-- Reforge priority is always to Dodge regardless of what stat it is? Is there a point of DR when going into Mastery makes more sense? I have 33.8% Dodge in this "starter" gear.
Yes, as there is no dodge on your gear otherwise, short of trinkets.

-- EJ appears to love the armor trinkets like the JP 359 one. Yes, no, maybe so? Mix of Stam and Agility or Armor? Double Agility? Double Stam? Double armor?
Yes, as the amount of armor you have is static to your ilevel now, so any chance to add it is good against melee. I use Agi/Armor double Agi, or an expertise trink with stacking agi if I want to cap stuff. Stam or resist trinkets would be good for magic, if I had one.

-- Guide said to follow socket bonuses for Agility and meta requirements. Otherwise, pure Agility. Thoughts?
Yes, but I still go Solid for blue sockets.

-- A good raid marker addon. I suck at marking targets and need to get MUCH better of it if I am going to be Pugging with this one.
LuckyCharms2

[bldavis]

Answering Sherck's questions from the successes thread, as I have recently looked into a number of these. Please correct any wrongness:

-- There seems to be a large threat difference between when you have Enrage available for a trash pack (tab Mangle spam) and when you do not. Is there that large of a difference in AoE threat generation from using a Swipe / Thrash tab Maul approach and a tab Mangle spam with Enrage up?
Do you mean Berserk? That + Magle spam, preferably with a 3x pulv stack is your best threat/dmg rotation, but you cant use it very often. Thrash/Swipe/Maul+Tab Mangle is good for standard AoE in most cases.

enrage will give you enough rage to mangle/thrash and with that (provided your dps wait 1-2 sec) you have threat and should be getting hit, generating more rage to swipe and maul
i only use berserk if i am REALLY losing threat on a trash pack, but that is rare even with my old 346 and 353 weapons, now with my new one? i doubt it. what i use for aoe is thrash-maul-swipe-maul-thrash-maul... and just tab around to spread out my mauls

-- On that note, what is the threat generation "ranking" of our attacks. since so much is put on tab Mangle spam under Engrage, is Mangle our top threat attack? Swipe? Maul? Mangle only when at 3x Lacerate? 2x Lacerate?
Not an easy question, but basically keep pulv up, keep mangle and thrash up on all targets and stack 3xlac on everything you can.

top threat is a mangle crit, but you need to keep pulv up for those big crits(savage defender), and if you can try to keep 3xlac up as much as possible. remember that mangle also boost the bleed damage of your thrash, so if you are in a hard dps burn that you are tanking, use thrash as well...it might get you a few 100 extra dps and help beat the boss down

-- There appears to be a very lack of defensive CDs. Barkskin every 60 sec. Frenzied Regen every 3 min (but glyphed is that even really a defensive CD because it is no longer converting Rage to Health?). Enrage does nothing to increase survivability does it? I am not seeing much to string a chain together with.
Yup thats about it except trinkets. Keeping pulv up helps somewhat in increasing crit/SD procs, as does berserk.

both of you are forgetting survival instincts. think of it as bear shield wall

-- I has a 365 weapon so I am not anticpating many threat issues when I start doing 5-man Heroics since many have commented that a good weapon = good threat for a bear? Comments? True? Not True?
I want to say true, but I could see how that might be very wrong.

weapon damage -> paw damage
iow more weapon dps - more paw dps (this works for both kitties and bears)

-- Reforge priority is always to Dodge regardless of what stat it is? Is there a point of DR when going into Mastery makes more sense? I have 33.8% Dodge in this "starter" gear.
Yes, as there is no dodge on your gear otherwise, short of trinkets.

short answer - yes
long answer - haste>hit>expir>crit>mastery as far as reforging and always to dodge (where else are you going to get it?)

-- EJ appears to love the armor trinkets like the JP 359 one. Yes, no, maybe so? Mix of Stam and Agility or Armor? Double Agility? Double Stam? Double armor?
Yes, as the amount of armor you have is static to your ilevel now, so any chance to add it is good against melee. I use Agi/Armor double Agi, or an expertise trink with stacking agi if I want to cap stuff. Stam or resist trinkets would be good for magic, if I had one.

what do you mean armor is static now? from gear alone yes, but bears do get bonus armor from agil still. i normally run with a armor/stam combo, for pure physical i would do armor/agil(or mastery) and for magic only i would do dual stam (as SD does nothing for magic just like block and bloodshield)

-- Guide said to follow socket bonuses for Agility and meta requirements. Otherwise, pure Agility. Thoughts?
Yes, but I still go Solid for blue sockets.

i actually use agil for almost every socket, and for blues i do a shifting dream emerald (sgil/stam)
you def want to use the armor/stam meta and make sure you get 2 yellows in, i prefer puissant gems for that and in a yellow socket if i can.

-- A good raid marker addon. I suck at marking targets and need to get MUCH better of it if I am going to be Pugging with this one.
LuckyCharms2

i actually need to get this as well

edit: as we get farther into progression i will prob start adding more and more stam hybrid and pure stam gems as the health requirements go up

[cerwillis]

I need to check my info on the armor comment. Thanks for the insight bl.

Edit: even in aoe I tend to throw mangle around for the crits and plus to bleeds, but that appears to be optional in decent gear.

[cerwillis]

I need to check my info on the armor comment.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but we don't get armor from agi anymore. It happened the same time as it did for the other tanks. We just get to keep dodge from it.

Edit: (I just tested in game.)

[bldavis]

I need to check my info on the armor comment.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but we don't get armor from agi anymore. It happened the same time as it did for the other tanks. We just get to keep dodge from it.

Edit: (I just tested in game.)

.... /palm

i knew that too... i was having a huge brain fart today though

thanx for double checking that

[Skye1013]

I need to check my info on the armor comment.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble on this one, but we don't get armor from agi anymore. It happened the same time as it did for the other tanks. We just get to keep dodge from it.

Edit: (I just tested in game.)

.... /palm

i knew that too... i was having a huge brain fart today though

thanx for double checking that

Agility trinkets are for dps!!! >.> <.<

[Astronomic]

Not to worry skye bears can nab 2 nice 378 trinkets once they hit revered with the firelands people.

Also last time I tried on an armor trinket ( i think it was that one from vortex pinnacle) I got significantly less % additional mitigation than an equal ilvl trinket. I forget the stat but I jsut remember being non-plussed about it, imo The armor trinkets just dont give enough armor for me to care. The armor trinkets in wotlk were much beter.

[Amirya]

No, Skye, agi trinkets are for threat only.

[bldavis]

No, Skye, agi trinkets are for threat only.

/glare

[Amirya]

Oh noes, I'm being menaced by an angry kodo!

Please, Mr Kodo, don't go back to the kodo ranch and round up your kodo friends and stampede me! I was simply stating a well known PK fact - agi trinkets are for threat!

[Skye1013]

Oh noes, I'm being menaced by an angry kodo!

Please, Mr Kodo, don't go back to the kodo ranch and round up your kodo friends and stampede me! I was simply stating a well known PK fact - agi trinkets are for threat!

Threat... DPS... for a tank that's basically the same thing, why split hairs?

[bldavis]

ok for those that are reading this and going WTF

when i was first getting used to my bear as a tank (@ cata launch my warrior was going to be my main tank this xpack) the agil trinket dropped from BRC and i hit greed, while saying in vent "well that would be nice for threat"

this was what...5 months ago?
anyway....

on topic:
to all those who think the world (of warcraft) revolves around what paragon uses for world first kills, and those who think bears suck and shouldnt tank,
THEY USED A BEAR MT!!!! HA!

*gloats*

[Mannstein]

to all those who think the world (of warcraft) revolves around what paragon uses for world first kills

You may be joking about this... but back when i was in Lightning Blade EU, i was called a nub and questioned on my mental capability since my shamam had a different talent tree from Paragon's. I learn that day that my lvl 23 Shamy didn't have a raiding ready spec...
/shame

[Amirya]

ok for those that are reading this and going WTF

when i was first getting used to my bear as a tank (@ cata launch my warrior was going to be my main tank this xpack) the agil trinket dropped from BRC and i hit greed, while saying in vent "well that would be nice for threat"

He forgot the part that I was dead silent for a good 10 seconds while my brain tried to figure that one out.

And it went to a shaman.

Since then, all agility trinkets are for threat only.