25[HM] beth'tilac

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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Arianne » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:39 am

How far out do you send the soakers for the broodlings? Are those the only people that are out of the group? We've been sending groups of 3 (1 soaker, 1 dpser, and 1 healer) out to the spawn points and then we die when she's spraying the acid just after a smouldering.

Do you have specific people assigned to specific spinners for taunts? Do you assign ranged DPS to a specific spinner to DPS it down? The first set of spinners seems to go fine but the second set of spinners lingers up for a long time (partially due to the deaths during the acid phase, but partially I think just from organization). I don't want to over-organize though if that's not how it should be.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Darielle » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:01 am

We run 7, but our Spiderling groups only have two people (1 dps, 1 healer). Either the dps who's killing the Spiderlings or the Healer healing them pops the Broodlings, and they can stand wherever they want and the only two people that healer needs to heal are those two.

We just yell at everyone to kill all Spinners before doing anything, and taunt whatever. If a couple don't get taunted, they still get killed cause we keep yelling about Spinners. I doubt we'll ever stop yelling because people have a tendency to fixate on the nearest available thing with a healthbar instead of "It's a Spinner, kill it" and healers sigh when that happens.
Last edited by Darielle on Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:05 am

Arianne wrote:How far out do you send the soakers for the broodlings? Are those the only people that are out of the group? We've been sending groups of 3 (1 soaker, 1 dpser, and 1 healer) out to the spawn points and then we die when she's spraying the acid just after a smouldering.

I think theres assigned healers for the soakers that stand a bit out of the raid.
Im always going up so im not exactly sure how they handle it downstairs tho.

Arianne wrote:Do you have specific people assigned to specific spinners for taunts? Do you assign ranged DPS to a specific spinner to DPS it down? The first set of spinners seems to go fine but the second set of spinners lingers up for a long time (partially due to the deaths during the acid phase, but partially I think just from organization). I don't want to over-organize though if that's not how it should be.

We just pretty much have the holypaladins taunting them down, with whoever can taunt helping out.
RD is pretty nice for that situation.
As for the dps, we dont really have much assigned for it, its a bit FFA, as long as they die.
Usually healers start complaining on how much raid damage there is before people start focusing them down.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:01 am

Any particular challenges for tanks on this fight? Just hop on web ASAP pop CD's accordingly if you are going up top?

If you are on bottom is there any way you should try to take the drone? Or any type of special thing that you should be doing? It just seems like it fixates on someone and then would go back to you? Or should you be far away already as the fixate is running out?
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Treck » Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:29 am

If your going up, make sure healers are assigned to go up with you the very first wave, and let everyone know your taking the very first web, and let them know when youve actually clicked it, so they know they can follow.
I usually pop DP/HS when i first get up, dont forget WoG since the healing in the beginning is lowest.
Its not always low enough to kill you, but you dont need the CDs really for later anyway.
Remember that the fight is pretty long before she goes down, and you can pretty safely use your 3min CDs on the first and second time you go up, they will e ready for last phase again (i try avoiding them the 3rd time since its a bit close and you might not get to have them in the last phase).

If your bottom, you just pick the add up, and tank it just outside the raid, i think it cleaves/spitts, so turn it away from the raid.
It will then focus on someone else, usually this happends on someone in the raid, so they just move a few steps, and turn it away from the raid again.
If your unlucky it will target someone who is handling the small spiders, and they will need some backup with what they were doing.
And it should go right back to you as soon as the fixate releases.
And dont forget to taunt the spinners down all the time.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby baff » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:38 am

Treck wrote:If your bottom, you just pick the add up, and tank it just outside the raid, i think it cleaves/spitts, so turn it away from the raid.
It will then focus on someone else, usually this happends on someone in the raid, so they just move a few steps, and turn it away from the raid again.

The order of things is as follows. Drone come in. Will splatter first around the time it nears the raid, and a few seconds later will fixate. It is important to know that a drone will never splatter while it is fixated, and also for a few seconds after (like 10 seconds if I recall correctly, but you might want to check again in logs just to be sure).

I basically save my CDs while tanking the drones for the Smoldering Devastation, or while two drones are up (two splatters together can be painful). You aren't really in a danger of dying, but it can get pretty close.

Also, if spiderlings get near you want to move away. Our soakers complained that moving the drone away sometimes creates an angle between the broodlings running towards the raid and the spiderlings running towards the drone (we have them soaking and killing spinners). So it is a good idea to move the drone back to position near the raid if possible. Doing this without getting the raid splattered on can be done by turning the drone around right after he splatters at you. You have roughly 8 seconds to get this done (the hit is only at the beginning of the animation, after that you can move him already although it "looks" like he is splattering still).
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Galiks » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:50 am

As usual, I'll be more detailed if requested, but here are some tips we use to kill this boss..

-2x Ret Paladins float on bottom after the first web phase (1 ret paladin stays down full-time, 1 goes up for first web) for 2x Righteous Defense and 2x Hand of Reckoning. This ensures the spinners come down extremely fast. We also throw on Righteous Fury to tank them and call for AoE for the 2nd/3rd when we have them all - otherwise bottom DPS sit on the drone.
-Try your hardest to only assign 2 soakers (dps+healer) to each spawn location. This frees up essential DPS to go up top for the first round. We use: Moonkin/Disc priest, Hunter/Resto shaman, Hunter/Resto druid... or something to that effect. If we had one DK or more than one moonkin we'd use them instead of the hunters.
-We send up 7/3/3 I believe (DPS) for each web phase, Beth is around 89-90% after the first web phase. Two healers for the first web phase (holy paladin and resto druid), and one healer for the other two (holy paladin).
-P2 is all about managing healer CDs, and I don't deal with that :). I will say at 20 stacks that Beth is about 40% for us.

IMO this fight isn't too bad if you can get the spinners down instantly and minimize people handling spawns...
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Selcouth » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:53 pm

Okay, enough time has passed the real "progress" for Beefi is finished. Here's a trick the top guilds used a lot for the first world kills.

When Beefie is casting her "Smoldering Devastation" let a single player stay at the web. That could be a tank with tank cd's or a mage with invisibility. Beefi normaly cast her Fire Rain until a player is back at the web. This way she didn't cast it all and ur healer safe a LOT of mana for Phase2.

DONT'T TRY ICEBLOCK OR DIVINE SHIELD, she will kill u!
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:16 am

Last i checked, the Smoldering Devastation goes through all immunity effects AND Damage reduction effects.
Aka, shieldwalling etc wont work.
Altho i remember the hit to be small enough for a GS to actually save you, also Ardent Defender works fine.
Problem with those (atleast AD) is that you then have 15% hp, and that wont really save you for long since its gonna be a while before the healers come up.
Obviously thats the time to use CDs, but then you cant do it each time anyway.

Id say its more trouble than its worth really, you have raid CDs to use when shes spitting fire on the raid anyway.
Its NOT the AoE that drains the healers mana, its poor handling of the spinners that does.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Selcouth » Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:47 am

Oh Dude pls...

Aka, shieldwalling etc wont work.


It works, quite well!



From you:
Last i checked, the Smoldering Devastation goes through all immunity effects AND Damage reduction effects.

From me:
DONT'T TRY ICEBLOCK OR DIVINE SHIELD, she will kill u!


You are just repeating me or you didn't even read my post...


From you:
Altho i remember the hit to be small enough for a GS to actually save you, also Ardent Defender works fine.

From me:
That could be a tank with tank cd's or a mage with invisibility.


same here...

Code: Select all
Problem with those (atleast AD) is that you then have 15% hp, and that wont really save you for long since its gonna be a while before the healers come up.


That's the reason why we decided to use MAGES for it.



Id say its more trouble than its worth really, you have raid CDs to use when shes spitting fire on the raid anyway.


Why is it troublesome to let at each Smoldering Devastation a Tank or a Mage stay at the web?
She's channeling here devastation and a mage use his invisibility to evade the aoe attack. After the aoe is done he activates his mirror images to stay alive while the tank is coming upwards. 2 gcd preventing a big amount of dmg to the raid group...




Edit:
Treck wrote:Last i checked, the Smoldering Devastation goes through all immunity effects AND Damage reduction effects.
Aka, shieldwalling etc wont work.
AProblem with those (atleast AD) is that you then have 15% hp, and that wont really save you for long since its gonna be a while before the healers come up.
Obviously thats the time to use CDs, but then you cant do it each time anyway.


Are you saying that u would use cds on the aoe despite the fact that you know that they won't work? cO
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Treck » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:47 am

I can assure you, damage reduction abilities DID NOT work whatso ever the first week of both normals and heroic, if they have changed it then its faceroll.
Seeing as then shadowpriests can stay up with dispersion, the healer can stay up using their own CDs, and the tank can stay up by using shieldwall.
Also havnt read any changes about this behavior from any blue source, so still very hesitant that it works that way.

I was not only repeating your "BUBBLE/ICEBLOCK DOESNT WORK", i was also clarifying that it means even more, that it goes through immunity effects, AND its not affected by dmg reduction abilities, while repetition it still adds more to the conversation.

You said a tank could survive it with "tank cd's" thats suggest most tank CDs work, while only GS and AD actually has any affect, so no its not the same.

I never said anything whatso ever about using mages with invis, since i was more along the lines of explaining how you as a tank would do it.
Mages using invis works fine, think you need to rotate 2 mages tho to cover p1 as images doesnt have that short CD.

I use CDs to ease the healers job upstairs, if i have to blow all my CDs since im at 15% after a devastation and a healer wont be up for another 10-15sec, i first of all dont have the CDs later on to ease the healing, but i also dont have it the 2nd time devastation.
And i might not have them ready when i want when we enter p2.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Kerriodos » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:24 am

More inclined to believe the well established poster with the world 3rd kill than the random guy who decided to make his post as belligerent as possible, I think.

I've heard about this invis trick, I will say straight out that my guild never even tried it. So I could just be plain wrong here, but this is my opinion: There's no reason for it. Once you (as the top tank) have got your cooldowns mapped out well, and the bottom has soaking figured out, P1 healing is not a concern, especially because the beginning of phase 2 is lenient enough for healers to cycle through Concentration Potions. Hell, you even have enough time to use raid cooldowns for the first two AoE spits and have them back up by the time you need to start using them again in Phase 2.

Also, as for it being "a trick the top guilds used a lot for the first world kills," a quick perusal of some videos shows that the World First, World Second, and World Third kills all did not use it. Again, more inclined to listen to the advice of a tank who was actually involved in some of those "first world kills." Seems like its just more trouble than its worth, and from the looks of things, a lot of top guilds feel the same.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby PsiVen » Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:09 am

You can invis->tag->MI->iceblock, and certainly that will work if your mage has pitch perfect timing and goes in with full HP. You lose DPS on the spinners and introduce a single failure point to every transition.

You can also AD->LoH or AD->Bubble and just barely survive through all cooldowns until healers get up there... most of the time. You can really only do this on one of the two Smoldering->Rain transitions (the first one).


We fiddled with it, but two issues:

1) If it worked well for each transition, I would consider it cheesy and not want to do it.

2) It doesn't work well and is less reliable than learning the fight properly.

Because of this I very much doubt that many top kills used such a trick.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:07 am

Are you saying that u would use cds on the aoe despite the fact that you know that they won't work? cO


@selcouth

Clearly Treck was talking about using raid-wall type CDs for the raid on the ground to deal with the limited time the rain is coming down. That is different than trying to get by on a gimmick with really tight timing.
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Re: 25[HM] beth'tilac

Postby Galiks » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:18 pm

PsiVen wrote:You can invis->tag->MI->iceblock, and certainly that will work if your mage has pitch perfect timing and goes in with full HP. You lose DPS on the spinners and introduce a single failure point to every transition.

You can also AD->LoH or AD->Bubble and just barely survive through all cooldowns until healers get up there... most of the time. You can really only do this on one of the two Smoldering->Rain transitions (the first one).


We fiddled with it, but two issues:

1) If it worked well for each transition, I would consider it cheesy and not want to do it.

2) It doesn't work well and is less reliable than learning the fight properly.

Because of this I very much doubt that many top kills used such a trick.


I can't remember a time when a mage in my guild messed it up so I doubt the timing has to be that pristine. Just top them off before going down and it's never been a problem once.

DPS on the spinners shouldn't really be an issue - its more of an issue getting them all down and gathered to one area than killing them. The real key to making this fight MUCH easier is
- only having one DPS/one healer handling each soaking corner
- having mages trivialize the smoldering devastatio
- having paladins on the ground using Righteous Defense/Hand of Reckoning on CD on the spinners to get 4 down each time.

P2 shouldn't be a problem since your healers will be fine on mana without Smoldering Devastations/spinners sniping and DPS should be ahead since you freed up DPS from the soaking corners...
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