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[10] baleroc

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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby rodos » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:50 pm

2Cute2BeStr8 wrote:The only thing I need to know is how long the crystal stays up each time. It would be invaluable to know because basically we dont want to send a 3rd person in there for 2 stacks of the crystal. Plus it will help my shadow priest solo the first one.


Haven't done this one yet myself, but some good info here:
http://www.glowbie.net/blog/2011/07/19/healing-baleroc-10-man/

Seems there are 27 ticks/stacks per crystal, so 14 is a good point to switch out the first dps -- or more if they have some kind of personal cooldown (dispersion, pally bubble, nether ward, AMS, or whatever).
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby MomysLidlMonsta » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:52 am

For solo tanking DK is by far the best.
DRW, Vampiric Blood(glyphed) and self-healing make Decimation Blades so much easier. Our DK healed about 80% of our healers on our heroic kill.
Paladins will require less healing during the rest of the fight, but Inferno Blade is laughable (our holy paladin always pops divine Pea during Inferno Blade) and the normal phases should be manageable.
If you have multiple Holy Priests for Guardian Spirit to make Decimation Blades easier, Paladins should be better again, but I guess that only really applies to 25man.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Calleana » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:57 am

@ 2Cute2BeStr8: The crystal is alive for 30 seconds but only gives out 25 stacks.

If you do have someone taunt mid decimation blade remember to get guardian spirit or something on them as they'll need 250k health to surivive being hit.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Kishandra » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:26 am

Ezelyn wrote:Not very fair comparaison. You talk about normal strikes (which can't be a danger) but you don't argue on inferno blades because "it's not enough of a danger to be relevant".
If the point of view is to speak about danger in this fight, DK > Paladin, they rule the decimation blade with selfheal + shield + better avoidance (dancing blade)


Well, speaking from our guild's experience, when we were progressing on the (heroic) baleroc fight we had one paladin tank and 4 healers. We analyzed the death causes of our tank from one night (generally it's tank deaths that wipe attempts with that setup) and found that about 40 deaths were from normal melee strikes, 40ish were from decimation blade, and 3 were from inferno blade. Incidentally, those 3 deaths also happened to occur at the same time that 3/4 of the healers had torment (half healing debuff.)

So yeah, I think it's fair enough, from my point of view at least, to say that inferno blade does little enough damage to be nearly irrelevant as a tank danger on this fight.

We can agree to disagree on the decimation blade. In my mind, ardent defender trumps anything the DK can throw. All the dk does is pad the healing meters with unnecessary healing - if healers had torment, or were unable to heal due to running for countdown, no amount of dk self healing will keep him alive. If healers didn't have torment and are able to heal, the dk's self healing is extraneous. On the other hand, ardent defender is a guaranteed life saver whenever it procs, and will cover those oh shit moments.

To put this in context - we started out with a dk as the decimation offtank taunt soaker. Despite having a fraction of the paladin's hp, he died far more often to decimation blade. Perhaps it was the target switching, perhaps because we weren't actively pumping firelands tank gear into him, but our paladin solo tanking had fewer issues with deci blade.

ps - for any paladins who are tanking baleroc and are interested in remaining combat table capped, go for 107.4% instead of 102.4% - the dude has a hidden +5% hit buff somewhere.

Ezelyn wrote:Really ? i prefer DK on domo (OP deathstrike mechanic on scorpion phase), shannox (soak immo traps without taking the dot), Baleroc (see top) and for alizrazor since the hotfix on deathstrike (they rule the dps)


We could argue a lot on that. But for me, the OP tankadin tiers was before the WoG CD.


Well, I'm mainly looking at this from a heroic point of view. If anything's OP for the hard mode, it generally is overkill for the normal mode, etc.

Shannox - no class has an advantage as the maintank; possibly druid/warriors for mobility. Riplimb tank is definitely favored towards a warrior - intervene/charge/hamstring and you just lengthened the dog's kite time by 15 seconds.
Rhyolith - paladins have the best overall magic damage mitigation cooldown in glyphed dp (along with always blocking the hits), which makes them the superior tank on sparks.
Beth - I can't see any innate advantage here for any tank class.
Alysrazor - Warriors actually top the tank meters here, with the top averages around 87k, paladins at 85k, and dks (even after the deathstrike buff) average around 72k. To be fair though, anything above 60 is perfectly fine, those guys just put on dps gear to show off. Unless the raid is on the cusp of straight up killing alysrazor in 2 rotations instead of 3, the extra damage on hatchlings is more or less meaningless.
Baleroc - views stated above.
Majordomo - this is the pinnacle of ardent defender retardedness. In heroic, it's better, dps-wise, to bring a second (and sometimes even a third) prot paladin over a dps because of that single ability.
Ragnaros - superior magic cooldowns, boss with lots of fire damage, yadda yadda. Haven't yet hit phase 4 yet and method hasn't killed him yet so we can't watch paragon's video :(
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby frontallobe » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:43 am

Quick question: I'll try tonight

Can you just Sanc the DPS plate that taunts a decimation blade off you? Wouldn't that nullify the 250k (90k goes to you right?) strike that may hit him? And 90k to me at about 1million hp should be a joke no matter how low I am right?

If you tried this let me know, thanks!
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Gab » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:59 am

frontallobe wrote:Quick question: I'll try tonight

Can you just Sanc the DPS plate that taunts a decimation blade off you? Wouldn't that nullify the 250k (90k goes to you right?) strike that may hit him? And 90k to me at about 1million hp should be a joke no matter how low I am right?

If you tried this let me know, thanks!
Jay


If by "Sanc" you mean Hand of Sacrifice, I believe it could work. Before I quit raiding I would solo tank this as a prot Paladin and we had a holy Priest, so between GS and AD there was no need to have DPS taunt. However on one attempt we brought in a holy Paladin who hadn't done this fight, he used Sac on me and then proceeded to fall over. So there was some damage transfer going on. The only thing is I thought Hand of Sacrifice was only 30% which would mean it would reduce the strike by 75k resulting in a 175k blow to the dps. Pretty sure most dps aren't at that high of an HP level.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Ocin » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:14 pm

Ezelyn wrote:If the point of view is to speak about danger in this fight, DK > Paladin, they rule the decimation blade with selfheal + shield + better avoidance (dancing blade)


There's a 4 second healing debuff after Decimating Strike which reduces self-healing done by the tank by 90%. Considering this is the time where all tanks are in the danger zone, self healing seems to be moot as far as an advantage.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby HammU » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:28 am

Does the shield from a talented WoG take some of the damage of decimation blade, or is it still going to hit for 90% / 250k ? Thinking of it, does the Priest shield work?
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Kishandra » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:42 am

DK blood shield works, power word shield works, don't see any reason why wog shield wouldn't work - although it'd be laughably low if you're the designated deci soaker and laughably insignificant if you're solo tanking.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby HammU » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:04 am

Since we only really get in trouble if the first blade is a decimation blade, WoG + priest shield might still make a difference. Besides, it can't hurt.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Aerron » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:22 am

Kishandra wrote:DK blood shield works, power word shield works, don't see any reason why wog shield wouldn't work - although it'd be laughably low if you're the designated deci soaker and laughably insignificant if you're solo tanking.


The engineering belt shield also works.

And yeah, they're all pretty low when you're looking at values 600k+. But I'm noticing in my combat log that when I do die to Decimation Blade, it's usually by values between 20k-40k, regardless of where my overall buffed health is. IE, the healers just happened to miss the 90% mark by just a small bit.

Following that line of reasoning, every little bit of absorption might help overcome that margin.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Astronomic » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:45 am

How long are yall letting a healer gain stacks for before switching to tank healing. My raid leader wanted the 1st healer to wait to 50 stacks at which I said, well ur gonna have fun healing me as balerocs damage increases. I talked with him and hes gonna switch it to something like 12-13, just want yalls input.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Ocin » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:38 pm

Solo tanked it and stacked mastery. I wish I saved my logs to see what kind of healing I was doing during his normal melee attackes with just WoG.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:16 pm

Since people are comparing tanks, we had a bear solo tank it; he just threw away all his stam and geared/gemmed for agi - with the way the boss works stam isn't all that helpful. This was for heroic and 2 healing 1 tanking, but I imagine it would work fine on normal too. He did 18k dps on the kill too since his gear turns out so close to DPS gear, which was helpful to beat the enrage.
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Re: [10] baleroc

Postby Hrobertgar » Thu Jul 28, 2011 1:40 pm

How long are yall letting a healer gain stacks for before switching to tank healing. My raid leader wanted the 1st healer to wait to 50 stacks at which I said, well ur gonna have fun healing me as balerocs damage increases. I talked with him and hes gonna switch it to something like 12-13, just want yalls input.


My group 3 heals it, me as holy pally, plus a tree and a shammy, and we switch for each crystal and get piles of stacks. Keep in mind, that the tank healer buff lasts 15 secs at a time and thus introduces some inefficiency so you want to maximize time on crystal healing, while remembering that between boss abilities the tank healer CAN still drop effective heals on crystal targets even if he does not gain stacks for it. Crystal duration at 30 secs = 2x tank healer buff duration.

We wound up with a slightly unorthodox healing setup, but it works. I heal the first crystal group for the entire duration and spam holy shock-WoG-holy light-holy light-holy shock-etc. I can build up stacks very quickly doing this, and pull like 30k heals for the encounter or something ridiculous (based on chain casting holy light, holy shock, 3 hopo woG on tanks). I use the otherwise hated Holy Light for mana conservation, to allow me to spam on either crystals/dps or tanks. I switch to Divine Light for boss abilities and I DO help on the tank for every decimate even if i'm on crystals since I can generate stacks so quickly. I usually Lay on Hands the first time the tank gets hit with decimate, then spool up some regular heals proactively.

On the crystals, we have 2 groups of 2 with the spriest in the first group that I heal, and then 1 dps (arcane mage) that never goes near a crystal. The two groups are a melee for the first part of the crystal, and a ranged for the second half of it. Nominally they split roughly even, but sometimes the spriest takes most of one to help build healer stacks.

The shammy and I switch between boss duty and crystal duty every crystal (30 secs) so I always have the spriest group and he always has the hunter group. I have no trouble getting like 130 stacks by the end of the fight. The drood/tree stays primarily on the crystals/dps the whole time, and seems to have little healing on the tanks per recount, but hey, it works.

Keep in mind, you gain stacks = crystal stacks/3 for every spell cast on a crystal target, while you do not have the tank healer buff. So at 18 stack you get 6 heal stacks per cast (spriest, ret pally for this) but even at 9-12 stacks you get 3-4 per cast. Thus like 3-4 quick instant direct casts = a pile of healer stacks. This is why I hit WoG everytime its available, even at 1 holy Power and love Eternal Glory. Frequency of casts > size of casts for stack count as long as the targets don't die. And the drood/tree should have enough throughput to keep them up until about 10+ stacks. I would ask him to help more for boss special abilities, but its been ok as is for 3 kills so far.
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