Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:49 pm

A 25man guild going for 10man IS going to have the ability to have the "perfect" setups for every single fight pretty much.
And they have a very big advantage obviously.

Altho i feel like the point of this comparison should be more focused on how easy/hard Fireland 10man is for a 10man guild, vs Fireland 25man for a 25man guild.

I havnt been in the 10mans myself, so i cant speak from personal experience, however its pretty easy finding information around that leads up to a pretty obvious conclusion.

In 25man, theres really only 3 "hard" bosses.
Baleroc, Majordomo and Ragnaros.
Baleroc is an insane dps race with "entrance" gear on firelands.
Majordomo is in a way a dps race aswell, however if you have the dps for Baleroc, you for sure have the dps for majordomo.
Ragnaros is a whole other story, but also is a dps race.

Comparing to 10man.
Baleroc 10man was killed seconds before enrage the first week, while in 25man none killed it before enrage, in fact most guilds had enrage at 7-10%.
In 10man, Majordomo's enrage isnt really an issue, even if you soak lots of scorpion cleaves, while in 25man, you pretty much dont wanna soak the cleave at all, since you dont wanna loose the consentration stacks.
As for ragnaros, from what ive heard, the dps "race" is kinda a joke compared to 25man.

So, im not sure if you wanna say 10man is undertuned, or 25man overtuned.
Im leaning towards 25man beeing "properly" tuned for 391 gear, while 10man is undertuned for 391 gear, or just tuned to lower gear.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Lieris » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:03 pm

Paragon's recent comments have been really obnoxious and I am not sure what they are trying to achieve by mouthing off on this. They acknowledge that 10 man guilds don't have a pool of 30+ players to draw from to optimise setups so why make sweeping statements about the difficulty on 10 man? My guild's hardcore raid group is 6/7 and they are not even close to being able to drop a healer on Baleroc or 8 man Majordomo.

Of course Ragnaros is going to be easier on 10 man when you have spent over 500 wipes learning him on 25 man and have brought a perfect setup.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:10 pm

Lieris wrote:Paragon's recent comments have been really obnoxious and I am not sure what they are trying to achieve by mouthing off on this. They acknowledge that 10 man guilds don't have a pool of 30+ players to draw from to optimise setups so why make sweeping statements about the difficulty on 10 man? My guild's hardcore raid group is 6/7 and they are not even close to being able to drop a healer on Baleroc or 8 man Majordomo.

Indeed, the difficulty for a 25man guild to do 10mans is stupid to even mention.

Lieris wrote:Of course Ragnaros is going to be easier on 10 man when you have spent over 500 wipes learning him on 25 man and have brought a perfect setup.

Yeh, fight is very similar, and you know what to do, the execution is going to be slightly different, but overall its still the same.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Iminmmnni » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:31 pm

Worldie wrote:A 10 men guild can't really afford to switch people and specs for each fight, they will likely have to face some bosses with suboptimal setups adding difficulty


Exactly. Tuning 10man for optimal composition just means that most 10man guilds won't be able to do the content (hello 2x resto shaman).

Another point that doesn't get much mention is the granularity of healing options available in 25 vs 10 man. If an encounter is perfectly tuned for 6 healers in 25, there's no way to to make an equivalent tuning in 10 man. The group either tries to 2heal and people die, or 3 heals and fails to the enrage timer.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:34 am

Lieris wrote:My guild's hardcore raid group is 6/7 and they are not even close to being able to drop a healer on Baleroc.


Slightly off-topic but does this mean you're 3 healing Baleroc?

We've been trying to 2 heal with our priest switching to shadow to soak shards, and while we seem to be ahead on the enrage, random tank deaths seem to be the major remaining issue, which I suppose 3 healing would fix - but then we'd be down one of our best soakers.

On topic for all the stacking questions, we'd have killed him several times over last week and this week if we could just swap one character - trading a hunter for another spriest or lock or maybe even a rogue or DK would have prevented various low % wipes or shard related deaths (although our Spriest SW:Ding herself for 90k while Tormented at 10% would still have wiped us I guess). Alternatively switching out one of our worse soaking DPS for a 3rd healer might have helped if it is 3 healable. Or even having a real Spriest instead of the healer's bastard-geared off-spec pulling 20k.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:40 am

Oh, and grats on H:Rag Treckie :D

If you have an alt group, you should take it to do Rag 10H too :P
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:58 am

fafhrd wrote:Oh, and grats on H:Rag Treckie :D

If you have an alt group, you should take it to do Rag 10H too :P

We most likely will, but not now.
Progress just finnished, people hardly wanna sit at their computers anymore, and dont even talk about raiding :P
Its nice not beeing tied up for a few more months :P
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:00 am

What you say Trekkie is why i havent applied to Method when they were looking for a Prot Pala.

What, taking a break from raiding? MADNESS.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:04 am

Treck wrote:
fafhrd wrote:Oh, and grats on H:Rag Treckie :D

If you have an alt group, you should take it to do Rag 10H too :P

We most likely will, but not now.
Progress just finnished, people hardly wanna sit at their computers anymore, and dont even talk about raiding :P
Its nice not beeing tied up for a few more months :P


"finnished" eh :D?
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:17 am

Worldie wrote:What you say Trekkie is why i havent applied to Method when they were looking for a Prot Pala.
What, taking a break from raiding? MADNESS.

If you spend 3 weeks on progress, most beeing pretty much only one boss, you would be pretty sick and tired of it aswell.
Farming is nice and all, but its obviously progress that really matters.
And id rather tie myself up for a few weeks twice a year, than a few nights every week for pretty much the whole year.
1day a week, with the fact of actually beeing one of the first in the world to defeat the encounter is more than fine for me ^^
I dont need to raid 3-5 days a week progressing for months to satisfy my raiding quota anymore, a few intense weeks during progress is more than enough ^^
I really used to enjoy raiding day after day in previous guilds, but i couldnt stand going back.
Its all about beeing the best at what you do, i can live on 2nd place for another half a year without actually doing much of importance tbh.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Worldie » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:36 am

That's what I meant, i very rather have the progress "distributed" in a month or so rather than zerging and wiping on same boss for days and days and days ;)

Nontheless gratz on the kill, 2nd place but still awesome, don't think I'll see that done before a couple months or so.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:26 am

Worldie wrote:That's what I meant, i very rather have the progress "distributed" in a month or so rather than zerging and wiping on same boss for days and days and days ;)

Nontheless gratz on the kill, 2nd place but still awesome, don't think I'll see that done before a couple months or so.

I really just dont feel the same.
Have you tried the other way tho? :P maybe you would really like it ^^
But then, everyone plays the game differently.

Also, its Treckie, not Trekkie ;(
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:36 am

Brekkie > Trekkie. Unsure where Teckie fits in (male draenei, so possibly nowhere).
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:53 am

I guess its better than Treckle...
Theres a pretty distinct differance between "Treckie" and "Trekkie" tho, as for their meanings.
None of them are really related to why my char is named as it is tho.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:11 am

You guys should totally say "we killed him a bit slower because we brought a shaman" in the thread about Method bringing a shaman when Paragon didn't btw. Resultant forum ignition would be most lulzworthy.
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