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Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby thegreatheed » Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:10 pm

Blizzard really needs to do some smart loot drops.

At the very least, drop physical dps daggers if there's no rogue, no mail if there's no shaman/hunter, no shields if you have no warriors/paladins in the raid. Offspec loot is acceptable to a point, at least it's not totally frustrating, if not really good for progression.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Raeli » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:44 pm

We have 1 Plate DPS and 1 Holy Paladin, in the first two weeks, the vast majority of all of our loot went to those guys. So much Int Plate and DPS Plate has dropped that I have several Holy Off-Spec pieces of gear, and our Warrior has several DPS Off-Spec pieces of gear. Meanwhile, our Warlock has had one piece of gear total, and our poor priest hasn't had a single item drop. It's pretty annoying to be at the point where we will be disenchanting loot next week (depending on drops ofc), where meanwhile others haven't had a single item drop for them. Aside from Tokens, we've also only had one tanking item drop.

The Amount of Loot in 10s is not the annoyance, the fact that it's so easy to have bad luck and be wasting loot from the second week is what is annoying.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Lieris » Mon Jul 18, 2011 6:30 pm

Kitmajere wrote:
Meloree wrote:I'm not arguing that 25man is harder by any stretch - I just don't know. I don't know that 10man is harder, either, although that seems to be "common knowledge", somehow. I'm just commenting that this, in particular, seems like a very flawed argument.


The difficulty in 10 man Sinestra was not breath cds, but the need to 2 heal the encounter (at least the earlier kills). That plus the same number of orbs in 10 and 25 made the repercussions of a healer getting orbed MUCH more difficult in 10 (1/2 of your healers vs. 1/6 or 1/5).

Re: the loot difficulties- it is noticeably harder to gear up people in a 10 man situation. Not only are drops much more likely to be wasted (we specifically have altered our roster to have fewer doubles of an armor type, but those damn sp mail pieces...). Also the fact that heroic tier bosses drop 9 pieces of loot in 25 (3 tier, 6 regular) while 10 man drop 3 (1 tier, 2 regular) is just silly. Finally, tank gearing is WAY harder in 10 since you run ~2 tanks in 25, and ~2 tanks in 10 man, with 1/2 to 1/3 of the drops.

Sorry to sort of derail the topic, just frustrated at the 10 man loot situation.


To add to that, when your raid needs very specific drops like weapons or trinkets you might never see them on 10 man (we didn't get a single Maloriak mace). On 25 man you have 6 rolls on the loot table so your chances are much better. You might get duplicates but sometimes that can work to your advantage too.

We have 5 people in our raid who want the Conqueror token (as an aside, we literally didn't get a single Conqueror glove token previous tier): A protection paladin, a discipline priest, a shadow priest, an affliction warlock and a holy paladin. That's very frustrating to gear up.

Also yeah, when you're having to use just 2 healers they have no room for error and any mechanics that require them to move become extremely punishing.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:36 pm

Loot is actually a really good point. We struggled big time for BoT and BWD loot because for weeks the vast majority of drops were leather. It got to be a bad joke.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Epimer » Tue Jul 19, 2011 1:28 am

I've checked our (10 man guild) armoury feed, and a little over half of our loot drops so far have been sharded. The majority of the rest has gone to off-specs. The only main-spec drops I can see are leather agility trousers, plate healing shoulders, and one of those random secondary stats intellect leather shoulders. Two other BoE pieces have gone to main specs of people who weren't in the raid at the time.

I'm not really bothered though, because having a 378 tanking weapon instead of a 359 one wouldn't have gotten made the difference between a Majordomo kill in the first hour of attempts or wiping on it all night. We'll go back and kill it next week, but not because of everyones' marginal upgrades, but because it took us time to learn it, and that familiarity is going to make a much bigger difference for us than a few more ilvls distributed across the raid.

I know all big improvements are made up of lots of little incremental improvements, but I really struggle to get worked up about poor loot luck. And no, we're not all going in decked out in 372 gear.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:34 pm

Meloree wrote:
fafhrd wrote:Heroic Rag I don't know if the disparity will still exist, or the lack of # of raid cooldowns and roles will screw 10 mans more than 25 like it did on Sinestra (not having a CD for every P3 breath sucked, not having room for an extra tank or a pally tank to reset spit stacks sucked).


Did anyone actually run a raidwide cooldown for every breath? That's a ridiculous number of raid cooldowns that you'ld need, considering Barrier and Spirit Link (post 4.1) were too short range to be all that useful for it, at least in 25s. I think it's a myth that 25mans cooldowned every breath, and I think people vastly underestimate the requirement for doing so. I know my raid cooldowned for exactly 4 breaths - the first one at transition (raidwall), the one where we were AoEing whelps (AM), and the first two breaths after the buff dropped (Raidwall/AM again). That was the sum total of our available useful cooldowns for breaths.

On the other hand, in 10man Sinestra both Spirit Link and Barrier are potentially useful raidwide cooldowns, given that you can compress the raid more.

I'm not arguing that 25man is harder by any stretch - I just don't know. I don't know that 10man is harder, either, although that seems to be "common knowledge", somehow. I'm just commenting that this, in particular, seems like a very flawed argument.


I wasn't saying you have to do anything - but I'm sure plenty of worse guilds than yours got their first kills by using a cooldown on as many P3 breaths as possible. With things like every DPS warrior being able to Rallying Cry, every Holy pally being able to Aura Mastery+Fire Aura, every prot pally being able to Divine Guardian, every druid being able to Tranq, there are far more options for cooldowns than the average 10 man which won't have more than 1 of each of those classes, if any.

On 10 at least, for our mediocre guild, any P3 breath after the buff dropped off would drop the entire raid very low even with our one aura mastery used (and getting the damn pally to use FR over Concentration was in itself a struggle since he insisted people kiting orbs should stay in range of FR totem instead) - if a healer happened to be kiting during a breath someone did die. We didn't make progress into P3 past the buff dropping until we managed to reliably cooldown 2 out of 3 breaths, with people saving things like Deterrance and Iceblock to survive the remaining ones. Then again we were also 3 healing and one healer was spending far more time dispelling than he probably should have and healing extremely little, so that was probably making things unnecessarily hard too - the phase just took too long while still basically being 2 healed. Shooting ourselves in the foot like that is probably at least part of why we're a mediocre guild, we 3 healed most T11 heroics and are 3 healing T12 ones too, even though better guilds manage to 2 heal a lot of them.

I'm not saying T11 10s in general were harder than T11 25s by any means - I'm pretty sure the extra difficulty on Al'akir 25H was more than any extra difficulty in Sinestra 10; but at the same time I can't imagine how Sinestra 25 could fail to be much simpler than 10. A smaller % of the raid kiting, more options for interrupts, more options for tanking, more options for cooldowns and more options for dispells seem pretty big perks for a fight where being spread out isn't particularly critical.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:41 am

I found Paragon's comment on this subject quite interesting

It's immediately obvious that there's a much greater degree of clarity and control in the 10-mans. Thinking logically, this should help quite a lot with the learning curve and avoiding mistakes, but that's not really something we could say our little skirmish 'proved' in practice. We already knew what the encounters were about and what the flame to avoid looked like -- relearning to accommodate differences is very different than learning from scratch.

A theme of more significance that you can clearly see in the three harder bosses for this tier is that the dps requirement is much too lenient in 10-man. This means that you don't really have to cut the amount of healers, which ensures relaxed gameplay for the healers while about half of their 25-man brethren are taking beta blockers just to be able to see clearly. The other half is naturally on the bench, sitting out for the extra dps. Perhaps this is a backlash from what we've been hearing about T11, but it really doesn't work as it is.

Proper tuning has repercussions though, since class balance has a huge impact when you're forced into two-heal and solo heal situations. And that's not even a stretch -- don't be surprised if you see a druid solo healing Ragnaros 10 hc before this tier is over. Might or might not happen, but at least it seemed plausible enough. Try doing that with a shaman.

This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them.

If we were really playing 10-man, we *would* have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we're concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you're simply enjoying the game with the hand you've been dealt.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby melisandyr » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:20 am

I think this provides Blizzard with quite a nasty dilemma. As I touched on above, I think they were happy to leave 10s at a reasonable level of tuning provided that 25s were the arena to compete for world firsts. If the perception is that tens is easier, then this might force an alteration.

I accept Paragon's experiences, but I think there are two important pieces that are missing:

- having already learned the fights in 25, there is naturally going to be a higher level of dps output. This might have seemed to trivialise some of the encounters. I've been thinking about this a lot recently in my own Guild (a bunch of friends who are at 2/7 hm - so a very different prospect to a professional group like Paragon). I think a huge portion of dps in a progress encounter comes from a "comfort" factor - knowing what is needed to be done, and when. Even in the best groups, getting 10 people perfectly coordinated is difficult - there's always going to be some doubt about whether you dodge the magma before you dps the fragments, and whether you believe the raid leader's instructions on this. I think by learning the encounter in 25 this element was eliminated entirely, and so there is some artificial boost to dps from this.
- having a 25 man roster allows you to pick the perfect team for each encounter in 10s. Not only can you bring the class to make sure you have all the buffs covered, but you can pick the best players for each encounter. I doubt everyone but the top teams has the luxury of this. For example, we have no locks, so some of the demo lock brilliance isn't available to us, and we have to overlap 2 people doing the job in 10 man aoe fights, which pinches us in other ways.
"proper" set up meaning you have to bench people because they don't play the flavour of the month class is probably the only thing that would make me walk away completely. I'm sure this is expected in your top 50 guilds, but beyond that - as I think is recognised above, people don't have the time to gear alts as well as mains to top levels. It's very insightful to see what top guilds "expect" to bring to the game to win.

Someone on Dream Paragon's own site also mentioned that having 378 complete gear sets for everyone from 25 is not a luxury most 10 man teams will have enjoyed.

I think there's a missing point that the control and clarity you get in 10 man comes at the expense of everyone having to do their jobs almost pitch-perfectly - I think the longer post picks up on that in more detail - 3 battle resses for 25 people is very different to 1 for 10 people, and some of the overlapping job requirements is too.

I think I'd be disappointed if I saw Blizzard tuning hard 10s just for the top 50 in the world - I quite like that it is competitive for about the top 1,000 at the moment.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Raeli » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:11 am

The problem I have is they assume that just by running 3 10 mans instead you would naturally much more loot, but the thing is, while in a 25man you can get the same item dropping from the boss at the same time, in 3 10mans you could have the same item drop 3 weeks in a row, but for the same group, so it may already be disenchanted twice while others in the other two groups are still to see it drop for them. Ultimately, it's still going to be more of a pain to gear people up even if you are running 3 10mans, so even if you had a team of 30 people still, you would still be worse off gearing up in 10s.

Of course in reality the situation is usually even worse for 10s, since I'd imagine most 10man guilds are running a single group, not 3. In our case, we've already had to disenchant Ragnaros loot since the second kill and Shannox heroic loot since the second kill too - we have also been disenchanting loot from all of the other bosses as well I might add. We've got 1 Frost DK, but the majority of loot has been plate DPS, so much so that both me and our warrior tank 4-5 pieces of DPS Off-Spec gear now.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:50 am

I don't think anybody's arguing that 3 10-mans will get much more loot than a 25, considering the base amount of items dropped would be the same.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:45 am

Paragon's full post is worth reading, that was just the summary at the end: http://www.paragon.fi/articles/10-vs-25-comparison

They say the first 4 easy heroic bosses are similar enough on both sizes as to not be worth trying to compare, they felt similar to their 10 man as 25. Given the relatively small number of guilds that are 4/7 heroic on 10 or 25, lots of guilds probably find the bosses hard enough to care about differences between 10 and 25. From the sound of it, their performance is just ridiculously good. On Baleroc for instance, which they found a walk in the park on 10 both in terms of DPS and Healing, we have DPS issues even on 10 - by 50% of the fight we're well ahead of the enrage, but by sub 10% even 2 healing, we're behind, and had a lot of 2-4% wipes last night. Partly that's lack of preparedness (no BH trinkets on spriests leading to a lot of raid movement at the start to use SpiritLinkTotem to stack the first torment), partly to poor play (we still screw up torment/tormented now and then), partly to things like hunters not having a damage mitigation unless they stop DPSing and duck in and out of melee, etc, but the order of magnitude difference between their DPS and ours is still extreme - they mention that though 2 healing in on 10 felt like 4healing it on 25, they had enough DPS to kill two bosses at once. So they 3 healed and killed it before the enrage... and they did it without anyone bothering to Sunder the boss. That is flat out vastly better play than we have, in addition to things like slightly better comps and gear.

I'm sure their comments about being able to 8 man heroic domo don't apply to us either - by all accounts Domo has too little health on 10 (normal and heroic) but I'm sure we won't be oneshotting it ahead of the enrage like they did on an attempt where the tank dies on the pull.

It's also a bit confusing seeing this post of theirs trying to say the difficulty on some things is similar, after the earlier comments from one of their DKs (Synti?) in MMOChamps Rag10HC thread where he said everything was far too easy on 10. I imagine the 6/7H 10 man guilds are smarting a bit from the claims that Para might have killed Rag10H in under 32 wipes if they hadn't had 25H experience distracting them.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Worldie » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:44 am

The most truthful part of their discussion was, in my opinion, the one about setup. A 10 men guild can't really afford to switch people and specs for each fight, they will likely have to face some bosses with suboptimal setups adding difficulty, while a 25 men guild won't really have any issue as the balance is much softer when you actually got 7 healers and 16 DPS rather than 2 and 6.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Xenix » Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:17 pm

Agreed - they hit the nail on the head in their last couple paragraphs with why most guilds find 10-man this tier more difficult, and why Paragon didn't:

This leads us to the fact that the gap between an optimal setup and the wrong setup seems to be quite a bit larger in 10-man than in 25s. If the encounters are really hard, you'll need a proper setup. Guilds shooting for a world first should always be expected to come up with one, but those below, the ones without alt raids, will be left hanging. If the encounters are tuned for the 'average' setup, guilds who can afford the optimal one will steamroll through them.


Similar to last tier - if you couldn't bring a couple disc priests to H Halfus (pre-nerf), or a sub rogue to Valonia & Theralion, you were going to have a much much more difficult time with it.

Most people will just read the first three paragraphs though, and ignore the last one where they say that their difficulty comparison is only valid if you have practically unlimited flexibility (such as them having 3 times as many toons to choose from as raid slots, to make a perfect setup):

If we were really playing 10-man, we *would* have a close to optimal setup. Even right now, scaled down from 25 to 10, we would have about 14 players and 30-ish fully raid-capable characters. The difficulty and tuning we're concerned about is for that scenario, not for the level where you're simply enjoying the game with the hand you've been dealt.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:45 pm

Worldie wrote:The most truthful part of their discussion was, in my opinion, the one about setup. A 10 men guild can't really afford to switch people and specs for each fight, they will likely have to face some bosses with suboptimal setups adding difficulty, while a 25 men guild won't really have any issue as the balance is much softer when you actually got 7 healers and 16 DPS rather than 2 and 6.

A 10man guild cant afford swapping around people for perfect setups every fight, but a 25man guild cant really do that eather tbh.
A 10man guild has what? 11-13people to swap around people.
A 25man guild has what? 30-35?
If you wanna "stack" something for a fight, you need more than 1-2 spots for a 25man.

Also, we have 26 active members, suboptimal setups and no room for swapping people in and out isnt helping.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:21 pm

Well, clearly the ideal setup has always been one where you bring the optimal 10/25 every time and somehow manage to gear everyone up equally while sitting them. Nearly all 25-man guilds who dabble in 10s have the luxury of this assuming their scheduling permits it, but it's a logistic nightmare to maintain a roster big enough to perfectly hone a 25 comp -- it would require something akin to plucking the best from 2 overflowing 25-mans. Many world first kills seem to come from groups that were optimized for class despite a gear disadvantage, and still came out ahead (perhaps because the gear advantage is slight when you farm the previous tier long enough to BiS your alts and offspecs).

I don't doubt that Paragon is right here on that point -- 25-mans have a big advantage when they drop to 10s. I disagree entirely with the suggestion that they wiped more on Rag because of their 25-man experience, and I don't think it was appropriate for them to make sweeping statements about everything being too easy, even if some of it clearly is. Appropriately designed, 10s need to be tuned a bit looser. That doesn't mean they're easier when faced by actual 10-man guilds, who on top of the comp skew we're talking about here, receive less loot per capita and are forced to shard more of it.

Regardless, we've never been in serious danger of the dreaded "everyone will compete in 10-mans because they're easier." The big contenders will always compete in 25-mans, especially if they are perceived to be harder.
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