4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Torias » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:49 am

I don't remember the exact weights being used but I think the guide rates Mastery ~3 times as valuable as avoidance, and stamina about ~1.5 times as valuable. That's pretty rough estimation on my part but should line up with the rankings, at least for the most part.

Going by that, 26*3 + 59*1.5 = 166.5, which is greater than the 134 dodge lost. This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings that I don't really subscribe to myself. But that's the rationale, as I understand it. I'll edit and add some sources if I manage to find them.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Ecmelt » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:53 am

Mastery Rating 1.00 (always the baseline)
Dodge or Parry Rating 0.36 (CTC value)
Stamina 0.66 (just a hare less than 2/3rds of mastery rating)
Armor 0.143 (1/7th mastery rating)
All Threat 0.00

he posted it before in this thread which is where im just copying from. Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use. 26*1+59*0.66+61*0.143 = 73.663 - 134*0.36= 48.24
73.663-48.24= 25.423 So its pretty accurate and is 25.423 points higher for these stat weights.

edit: If you only and only look for avoidance then 26-48.24 = -22.24 would make 2nd item better. However you dont only look at avoidance.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Eanin » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:13 pm

This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings.


I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.

Doesn't cast doubt on anything at all. Is all about stat weights people use.


It casts doubt on the weights, which is a part of the methodology, and therefore casts doubt on the methodology. I wasn't criticizing the arithmetic.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Torias » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:12 pm

You certainly have a point, and it's actually something I've wondered about (and subsequently rejected, hence my not sporting the cloak in question and instead sticking with the quest cape, too).

I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings. On some level I'm tempted to say that it's a level of precision that just isn't going to make a noticeable enough difference: I'm pretty sure any set of arbitrary weightings/ratings is going to break down when you start talking about moving 10s of points out of 1000s. On the other hand, what's the point in theorycrafting communities if we just hand-wave and say "Eh, it doesn't really matter" whenever a specific-enough question is asked.

I've spent the last little while attempting to come up with rationalisations for the high ranking of the cloak but I'm just not managing it. It seems implausible that an amount of Dodge is attainable that would cause DR to make up the difference. Even if it is plausible it seems unrealistic to use as a yardstick here.

Perhaps it is time the stat weights were re-examined?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby econ21 » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:06 pm

The stamina/CTC trade off in the weightings is the same as used in gems and Blizzard's item values. It's been endlessly debated, but there's not much consensus and it seems to be apples vs oranges. I don't think theorycraft helps resolve it (or at least it hasn't so far).

The avoidance vs mastery trade off is valuing avoidance solely in terms of combat table coverage. If it was valued in terms of damage reduction, the weights would be much closer. It is a little extreme - reducing damage has some value - but I guess the guide is written for people like myself and I suspect the majority of causal tankadins, who are plugging away trying to get to 102.4%.

We do nonetheless make trade-offs with stamina (I am loathe to go two mastery trinkets, for example) and using the gem trade-off has a certain logic.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:27 pm

To echo Econ21, the weightings do not favour CTC over stamina in gearing to any real significance. The weightings favour CTC and stamina over MDR.

1 Mastery = 2/3 stamina

(Blizzard itemisation)

1 Mastery = 0.66 stamina

(Digren's weightings)

The difference is 0.66 being a touch under 0.6666666666666666666666666667 (Yeah I don't know how to do the dot for recurring) meaning it favours mastery gemming over stamina, but it does not really effect the value of Mastery compared to stamina on gear as for this sort of thing 0.66 = 2/3

--------------

Also the CTC difference is ~0.20% - Strength was not considered.

--------------

Personally I feel that MDR should be given a slightly higher consideration but not to take the focus away from CTC. My preference would be a value of 0.52 (0.25*1.0+0.75*0.36) which still leans very heavily towards CTC but puts 1% avoidance over 1% CTC.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:43 pm

Might be worth adding under the cloak section but the healing cloak from Sinestra is pretty awesome if you reforge the haste. The socket actually ends up making it fairly useful.

Its got haste /mastery good stam and int ( so no parry from strength)
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Showania » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:01 pm

Wasn't that cloak brought up before? Also, I would think if you were going to go that route the Rhyolith cloak would make the Sinestra cloak obsolete, especially since it's far easier to obtain. After you socket the Rhyolith cloak with a few fractured amberjewels, you end up with more mastery than the Sinestra cloak. 153 on the Sinestra cloak vs. after the gems 175 on the Rhyolith cloak.

Also, you gain 22 mastery over the difference of 4 stam and armor, and the hit rating on the Rhyolith cloak is higher than the haste of the Sinestra cloak, meaning you can get more dodge/parry from the reforge.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Digren » Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:45 am

Torias wrote:This is a pretty militantly max-CTC set of weightings

No it's not. If it was, I wouldn't value stamina and armor.

What it is is consistent. Far too many people say they want to "maximize combat table coverage" but then argue that "No, no, in this one case here, I actually want to do something else." That philosophy leads to inefficient gearing.

If you want Maximum Damage Reduction, use an MDR guide or set Mr. Robot to provide that for you. But then don't be surprised when the guide suggests dodge gems over mastery. If you don't want to value stamina at 2/3 mastery, then don't be surprised when guides stop recommending any stamina gems.

Eanin wrote:I have nothing against a max-CTC guide (I wrote one myself once upon a time back when there were crushing blows). What's weird about the cloak case is that the PvP cloak actually provides less CTC than the quest cape.


It's not a max-CTC guide. No sane person would gear for CTC alone (choosing highest mastery rating + 1/3 avoidance for each piece) in the absence of any other stats, because that would lead to much-lower-iLvl pieces popping up to the top of the list periodically, when a newer piece with more stamina and armor is clearly better.

There's nothing weird going on. You've made an assumption about the guide and are troubled that your assumption isn't to be panning out.

Torias wrote:I think the fact is that with the stat weightings in question 59 stamina simply ends up having a higher weighting than ~0.24% CTC. Pretty weird result for a "Combat Table Coverage" set of weightings.


It's your own assumption that this is a CTC weighting. :) You made an assumption and are now surprised that it doesn't fit the data.

Both of you take a step back, and think about how difficult it is to provide a guide for all the possible different tiers of tanks in so many different tiers of content. Even if you toss out the highest-end tanks (who rarely need guides like this), you have people trying to survive heroics all the way to people working through Firelands. In each case the tanks need a certain amount of stamina from their standard gear set (so that with just a trinket swap or two they can have enough for each encounter), but they also need to have a predictable amount of damage intake (low too, yes, but predictable is better than low for most people). And that ignores the variation due to healer preference (i.e. how your healers want you to gear to make things easier on them).

Think of each gear set as a point on a three-axis chart, [X,Y,Z]. Let X be the correct amount of block for that character, Y the stamina, Z the avoidance. Starting with a naked character, and using the gear available to that character based on available content, I have to create weightings that result in given slopes Mxy and Mxz such that the resulting vector hits just the right spot when the character fills their last open gear slot.

Doing that for all characters with just one set of weightings may be impossible. But I think this set is pretty close. What doesn't make sense though is using different weightings for different slots in the same gear set at the same time. That doesn't yield a vector.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Staatt » Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:33 pm

Wow, well put! I've found the guide to be HUGELY valuable, and I appreciate the time you put into it. Keep up the good work!
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Pinupgirl_Madoran » Sun Aug 07, 2011 5:47 pm

Understanding check:


Once you can hit 102.4% CTC...

For all further upgrades, isn't it basically "Whatever piece of gear has higher stats, overall, is better" ?

Strictly speaking in terms of gearing purely for avoidance... If I can stay at 102.4%, I'm reforging all extra stats into Dodge/Parry as equally as possible.


WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby yappo » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:46 am

Pinupgirl_Madoran wrote:Understanding check:


Once you can hit 102.4% CTC...

For all further upgrades, isn't it basically "Whatever piece of gear has higher stats, overall, is better" ?

Strictly speaking in terms of gearing purely for avoidance... If I can stay at 102.4%, I'm reforging all extra stats into Dodge/Parry as equally as possible.


WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?


Depends on what you're tanking. I'd assume a normal mode raider to go your path, but a hard mode tank is likly to be more interested in extra stamina.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby lythac » Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:57 am

Pinupgirl_Madoran wrote:WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?


I do not think so.

Once you reach block cap, you start swapping out Mastery gems for Sta gems and Eventually making your way from Mastery trinkets (on use/procs aside) to Sta trinkets.

We are not yet at the point where you can fully gem sta, dual sta trinket and still be at 102.4%
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby Pinupgirl_Madoran » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:23 am

lythac wrote:
Pinupgirl_Madoran wrote:WRT the guide as a whole it values mastery above everything else, but one you're able to block cap, you're more concerned with essentially having the most mitigation possible on all pieces, reforging to 102.4%, and putting all excess mitigation into dodge/parry.

Does that sum things up accurately or am I missing something?


I do not think so.

Once you reach block cap, you start swapping out Mastery gems for Sta gems and Eventually making your way from Mastery trinkets (on use/procs aside) to Sta trinkets.

We are not yet at the point where you can fully gem sta, dual sta trinket and still be at 102.4%



Is it unreasonable for me to say that I wont be putting on stamina until I actually die to damage that I couldn't be healed quick enough from?


Don't get me wrong, I believe people when they say "Stamina for hardmodes" but I've yet to have a healer go "I would be totally OK with you sponging more mana, go put on some stam" and I've yet to die to damage that was too high to heal quick enough. When I run into these situations I have lots of different trinkets and flasks and such in my bag, I can adjust accordingly right then and there, and then play around with gems and such later.
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Re: 4.2 Tank Stages and Cataclysm Gear Guide

Postby RedAces » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:16 am

On Nef 10H tanking Onyxia and all of the skeletons together put me in this situation - I was just unhealable with maxed CTC because the breath + the skeleton would kill me. So I changed my gear to have more stamina and we barely wiped in P1 after that.
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