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[25HM] Lord Rhyolith

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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby anafielle » Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:20 pm

Thanks so much for the comments guys! Lots of useful stuff in here.

Kerriodos, yes, you and I appear to be having just about exactly the same problem. Your post emphasized the tanking issues and I'm sorry to have turned the discussion away from tanking and into steering, but I'm not that sorry, because I need help. :P

Essentially, it seems like Ana and I need to know the same thing here: How can we get more DPS on the legs, without making steering harder than it already can be, and what are the tricks to keep the steering controlable?

Yeah, we do.

If I could make Rhyolith beeline straight for the active volcanoes, and beeline around the dormant ones so as not to stomp them, I would be ecstatic.

Towelliee, thanks for laying out the DPS you had on the legs, that is actually really helpful. You were able to soft-turn him with 3 DPS on each leg and 2 extra DPS on the turn leg? That strikes me as so different from our experience.

For soft turns, I had all the melee switch (8 people). This barely felt like enough to very gradually turn him. For hard turns, I had the raid switch. This was a lot more effective, but most of the time (not all the time, but most of the time, which means it wasn't even predictable!) the raid switching for a couple seconds would trigger a superturn and he would spin around. Generally that's what I wanted, but then correcting his aim was very hard -- because of how softly he was turning in general.

You appear to be using a lot less DPS to switch to soft-turn or hard-turn him than we did. Just two?

And this was effective for turning him? Your driver could call "left" and he would pretty much go left right away? Hmm.... Did you have ranged heavily multidotting / DPSing the legs too?

Maybe this is part of the issue- I kept feeling like we didn't have enough switching, but the problem could have been the opposite. I felt like I would call for a turn and there was this HUGE LAG before his turning bar would budge. Maybe we were steering with too many DPS instead of too few?

As for Superheated + DPS, I feel as though this is an issue that is very much connected with the steering problem. Maybe I am being overconfident, but if the stacks come off a lot faster, every bit of DPS on the legs is more effective, and so solving the steering problem will do a lot to make the leg DPS look better.
Anafielle, 90 Retribution Paladin in <Something Wicked> :: Armory :: Twitter

Sacred Duty: Theck, Meloree & Ana's blog

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Kishandra » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:24 pm

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier, but a very viable tactic to increase dps on the legs is to ignore the liquid obsidians. Snare them with frost and earthbind, aoe fragments near them, and they should be pretty much good to go. Some will undoubtedly reach Rhyolith, but not terribly much more than when we were having people multidot them. With the time saved from not killing liquid obsidians, there's more dps to go around for the legs, and as others have mentioned, hero after third spark is dead, you've just killed a wave of fragments, then burn the legs (they should be around 50-60% hp and 20-30 armor stacks.) He'll summon a 4th spark and a wave of fragments but you'll push him to p2 before any of those become dangerous.

From there it's just a simple tank/spank. Ignore the laser beams, they do such a laughably low amount of damage that it's just better to simply stack up and aoe heal.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby callimar » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:12 pm

A good suggestion also is when you are doing a hard turn and need to straighten out have all dps switch. Then when he gets back to the 40% range have your dps split again. We found this quickly turns left right or straightens. So it would be 8 dps left "hard left". 8 dps right "straighten" then at 40% ish it splits back to 4 and 4.

Anyway GL we are still beating our face on this as I speak.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby sakkdaddy » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:06 am

We just got our first kill Tuesday, and here are some suggestions:

One proper tank, me as the weirdo tank, 6 healers, 6 melee, 6 ranged Fragment AoErs, 5 fulltime Spark dpsers.

I tanked the Fragments with a frost spec in mostly tank gear, and found it was very effective at picking them up quickly so AoErs never had to hold back. Try to tank the Fragments in melee range of the boss so AoE hits him, but also try to minimize movement so AoE damage can be effective. I generally try to place them ahead of his path and then hold them still til they die. Make sure you get Misdirects on the 2nd Fragment packs when they spawn back to back, as those are the most difficult to pick up.

Melee assignments:
3 melee assigned to each leg. Try to balance out the dps while still maximizing cleave damage. Always dpsing legs, but throwing some AoE at Fragments when they are close.

Fragment AoE assignments:
Fragments > Spark > Legs
Half were assigned to the left leg, half to the right leg, with dps roughly split evenly. They stayed focus on their legs, though still multidotting, whenever Fragments and Sparks were dead. They only switched legs when "Hard Left" or "Hard Right" was called. Because of the timing of Spark spawns, they would usually throw some dots up on the Sparks when they spawned then prepare for hard AoE when the Fragments spawn soon afterward.

Spark assignments:
Try to stay dpsing the legs until the Spark gets 3-4 stacks of the debuff, then switch to blow it up around 9 stacks.

The whole raid is split in half with assignments to the left and right leg. Half the melee on each, half the AoErs on each, and half the Spark dpsers on each. This way steering stays more controlled when Spark dpsers switch off the boss (they come off of both legs evenly) and the same for the AoErs.

Slight right/left - Everyone stays on assigned legs except for 2 melee (drivers) who switch to the announced leg
Right/Left - All ranged stick to assigned legs, but all melee switch to the announced leg
Hard Right/Left - All dpsers switch to the announced leg

The transition - Once the 3rd spark is dead, call for hard AoE on any remaining Fragments, then bloodlust and it's rapetime. Make sure you have the dps to transition before the next Fragments start blowing people up or you are screwed.

We used a Barrier, Totem, and Rallying Cry as soon as he went orange and had everyone move inside ASAP. The Barrier should stay up for the first stomp. AM the second stomp. Raidwall the 3rd stomp. he died during the animation for Stomp #3 for us so you might not even need it if your dps is good enough.

Hope this helps. :)
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Kerriodos » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:32 pm

Took it down tonight, finally. Myself and the DK tank swapped roles, putting me on Spark tanking, and everything seemed to go much more smoothly--I was doing more damage to the Spark than he had been, making it die faster, and DnD/Death Grip were very good for rounding up fragments.

Once we got used to lusting after the third spark died, killing the next wave of Fragments and ignoring the fourth spark, we started pushing consistently before the 5 minute mark. After that it was just a matter of getting a clean attempt and working out phase two cooldowns. We had DPS druids Tranq and our Disc priest Hymn to top us off in the transition, Aura Masteried the first stomp, Raidwalled and AM'd the second, and blew everything else for the third. That got us rather cleanly through them, though a fourth likely would have killed half the raid.

For steering, we assigned all ranged to a specific leg for downtime, DoT classes to double-dot, and had the melee reacting to steering calls. Had a few problems with missing the odd volcano, but a hard switch was usually enough to recover.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Ragebaby » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:58 pm

We found that tanking Fragments on top of the ozze group helped a big deal to increase raid DPS and reduce the stacks of Obsidians armor gained. And also rearrange the ranged dps a little to have 2 mages on Sparks full time and all other ranged would either be on legs or fragments, which also increase our overall dps on the boss to allow us push to phase 2 earlier.

Here's our kill vid:
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby inthedrops » Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:23 pm

We can't kill this thing. Steering always starts out good, and then eventually goes to hell later in the night. It's like he just stops wanting to turn. We've even gone so far as to put all but one person into steering and he still sometimes won't turn.

We're a very good guild and this fight is devastating our morale. I guess I'm just venting. I don't really have a question.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby anafielle » Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:25 pm

Something Wicked downed this fight last week. Maybe some of these impressions will help!

We finally got the turning under control. I was ecstatic; I was actually able to drive him! After a lot of experimentation with different turning teams, the RL ended up with this mix, and it worked---

Left leg: Rogue, ret, ele shaman, warrior.
Right leg: Rogue, ret, ele shaman, UH DK.

The rest of the raid was ranged. They each got a default leg too, because otherwise they would just DPS indiscriminately and mess up my precious turning. But Team Turn Rhyolith was the 8 people above; our 6 melee and two fake melee.

"Right" / "Left" -- Rogues & DK/Warrior switch to the called leg. (Rets and Ele's stay on assigned leg.) A 6/2 DPS split.
"Hard Right / Left" -- all leg DPS switch. 8/0 DPS split.
"Emergency Right / left" -- Entire raid turns and burns leg real briefly, like 5 seconds. Triggers the superturn and spins him for me. I did this mainly when he activated something off in BFE and I had to kick him into reverse & motor across the platform.

Once we had a pretty effective DPS split on the legs without a ton of random shit fucking it up, the turning got a lot more predictable. Feels like getting the hang of this fight was absolutely 100% coming up with the right DPS split on legs, on turning, on sparks, and on obsidums (ie none there). From there it was hit volcanoes, get into p2 with the raid roughly alive, chain cooldowns and survive. But the steering (and everything else; I was just concerning myself with steering) was key, and solved the puzzle of this irritating fight for us.

Anecdotal side note -- About halfway through the evening our raid comp changed and we replaced one of the "team leg" ele shaman with a 3rd rogue. I point this out because a simple change like this actually impacted the turning, which was fascinating to me since the rest of the raidcomp & the general strat remained exactly the same. If the prevailing theory is correct & he turns based on number of hits, this would make sense; we took a caster nuke class off and replaced it with a fast-hitting, dual-wield melee class that cleaves. Rhyolith's right turns were much tighter & left turns were a bit looser --- I missed a volcano by a hair on the first wipe, and called a turn too early (he turned faster than I thought) on another, accounting for two wipes. I got the hang of the altered movement after seeing how it changed... but the fact remains -- one single DPS class being switched out for a different one had that much of an effect on the steering. It wasn't that noticable, but it was enough that I had to mentally recalibrate what I thought he was going to do ("Ok, call the right turns a sec later next time....")

The one nice and predictable thing about his movement, or at least, my impression - he is quite easy to straighten out. Either he has an innate tendency to "pull" towards the center, or the nature of the mechanic means that ceasing DPS on a leg has a much more immediate effect than increasing it - all I know is, I could depend on him to straighten even if I wasn't QUITE sure how much he was gonna turn. I would call to straighten preemptively, he'd straighten, then I would assess whether he was on the right heading, and re-turn if needed. This was not the case on previous nights -- straightening him out used to be absolutely impossible. I have a feeling that lack of dots on the legs helped on this one.

Anyways. He was drivable.

My general aim strat went like this: Start out centered. Let him stomp once, then turn right. He will always hit his own first set of volcanoes this way; mostly I get an active one on the first turn. I then proceed to the back of the room where the next volcano ALWAYS is. I stomp this one, active or inactive. (If I leave it there, he'll invariably activate it later at the worst possible time.) From there, I proceed around the outside of the room roughly in a clockwise circle-- and head straight for whatever is active next.

When in doubt, I like to mostly go around the outside of the room to prevent "Volcano on my left; Volcano on my right; LOL HAVE FUN WITH THAT" syndrome, but this isn't always possible. I generally just head straight for the next active one, and the next active one after that, and so forth ... it ends up working. No, I make very little effort to avoid dormant ones. I prefer to head straight for the active and god help anything in my way. In fact, I try to stomp everything to prevent any of the dorment ones from becoming "Whoops, I missed that and now it's behind me" active ones.

Obviously once the burn call / heroes begins, it is much more important to avoid dormants and then I do try to steer him away, but the steering has gone to hell by that point, and getting those last stacks off involves going for volcanoes and it's all I can do to aim him a little- then p2 starts and it is no longer an issue.

So.... right. Once we got the handle of actually aiming for volcanoes without sending me straight to the mimosas to drown my sorrows, then the fight seemed to fall into place. We had some trouble getting a clean p2, but that just involved planned healer cooldowns, a cooldown chain for p2, and a ton of not standing in bad things which are flamey on the ground if I remember it right. He fell over & I wish the best of you luck (hope this helps)
Anafielle, 90 Retribution Paladin in <Something Wicked> :: Armory :: Twitter

Sacred Duty: Theck, Meloree & Ana's blog

"Hold on, hold on, let me make sure I've got this straight. You're telling me that a critical part of our strategy for this fight will be to have the ret paladins go stand in the fire? Yeah, we can handle that." -- DSWarden
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby exiledknight » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:24 am

Spent all night wiping on this with too many 40-50% wipes with very low molten stacks. SO I have a few questions to try and clean things up come tuesday and hopefully score a very quick kill.

1. If you are just stomping the hell out of all volcano's, how have you had your ranged move to avoid being in webs of fiery death(i.e 3 or 4 dormants shoot out the fissures at once and you watch half the raid die and the answers you get is fire fire everywhere)?
2. How many other people seem to have found that the number of hits may be the way to go? The huge reason I ask here is I have 2 melee that are our bottom dps by a large margin and if this is the case bringing them in could make a solid difference in this fight.
3. What are you doing with the liquids?
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Arianne » Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:53 am

inthedrops wrote:We can't kill this thing. Steering always starts out good, and then eventually goes to hell later in the night. It's like he just stops wanting to turn. We've even gone so far as to put all but one person into steering and he still sometimes won't turn.

We're a very good guild and this fight is devastating our morale. I guess I'm just venting. I don't really have a question.

This a thousand times. I hate this fight with a passion. It seems like his turning flames stop firing the more attempts you make. This is the only boss that I hate enough to quit the game. Kael wasn't this bad. LK wasn't this bad. Nef wasn't this bad. Those were 'we need to play better in X, Y, Z ways' situations. Rhyo is just random stuff everywhere and buggy mechanics that don't work and aren't explained anywhere combined with a burn phase that is way overtuned on heroic.

Why does every boss this tier (except, ironically, Shannox on heroic, but yes on normal) have to have a burn mechanic where your healers are pounding their buttons as fast as possible to last 30s? That's what we got in ICC and everyone hated it and they kept saying that they were going to fix this crap and instead they made it worse.


To be a little bit constructive...

1) We just tell people to move away from craters. There's no telling where they spawn, so there's no way to really say 'move here'. It is helpful to turn off projected textures because that mutes some of the AoE effects from other player's spells but doesn't turn off the molten fissures. People just have to get used to it and make sure to move away from them so they have time to react. Don't stand in between them if possible.

2) Mysterious. As far as I can tell what's important is the steady DPS on both legs then having a spike on one leg to turn him. I'm not DPS'ing and our raid leaders like to only talk to the people who are dpsing about how the turn mechanics are supposed to go, so I don't really have any information here.

3) Make sure that he keeps going in the same direction. Keep frost traps up just behind him if possible (or we have a warrior spamming piercing howl I think because our hunters fail at frost traps). Use Holy Wrath with the glyph to stun them when he goes to stomp.


To add a question, how do you guys have your healers organized for phase 2? We have 2 paladins, 2 shaman, a priest and a druid. The druid and priest seem to be doing what I see for other logs (rejuv/WG and PoH/PW:S respectively). The shaman also seem to be doing pretty much the same I see for other logs (healing rain, chain heal with riptide on CD and some sporadic GHW). But our 2 paladins seem to be changing what they're doing every attempt. Some they're even using Holy Light, which IMO is probably a bad idea during a burn phase (though maybe they're out of mana?). All of the direct heals seem to be going on pretty random people. Do you organize your paladins to heal a particular group (ex: the ranged so that the shaman can chain heal the melee?)? The successful parses from other guilds I've seen show the paladins spamming DL, but logs are a hard way to shed light on overall healing assignments.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Bellante » Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:50 am

Perhaps a bit of a silly question, but here goes:

Does Molten Armor only affect Concussive Stomp, thermal ignition and phase 2 damage, or all damage that player characters can receive (i.e. fragment damage, spark damage and Molten Flow)?

And apparently, Concussive Stomp can be jumped at the end of it's cast bar, anyone tested this?
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Darielle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:58 am

Molten Armor affects all damage that Lord Rhyolith does.
So it shouldn't affect Sparks, Eruption, Magma Flow etc., but it will affect Concussive Stomp.

Jumping does nothing for Concussive Stomp. Being far enough away will mean you don't get knocked back, and resisting it will mean you won't be knocked back, but jumping does nothing. It's a myth from back when.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Cockadoodle » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:57 am

This thread is a wealth of information for DPS split. One thing that not many people talked about while discussing DPS on the legs was the best way to deal with the oozes that come.

What method did you use to achieve the highest DPS on the boss in the encounter? Did you...

1) Tank the fragments on oozes and have the assigned AOE group kill the majority of oozes with the fragments?
2) Tank the fragments on the legs to up leg dps? Then how did you deal with the oozes?
3) Assign 1-2 DPS to multi-dot and knock back the encroaching oozes? If it's not enough, melee cleave cleans up?
5) Too PRO to worry about oozes

Any information on that particular part would be very helpful, as it seems we have a solid plan for everything but the oozes.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby Kerriodos » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:31 am

We tank fragments on the oozes. When I'm not tanking a spark I will also AoE them a little, and use glyphed Holy Wrath when a stomp is happening. If it looks like too many are going to catch up, we will have a boomkin knock them back and call to clean up oozes: you should really only need to do this once per fight, maximum.
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Re: [25HM] Lord Rhyolith

Postby culhag » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:49 am

No assigned DPS on the oozes, just a knock-back after the stomps.
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