[10] Beth'tilac

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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby frontallobe » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:31 am

We switched the pally (me) and dk positions with great success. DK up top took more DTPS but the healer thought it was a snore to heal him while I was getting my butt pretty well kicked up there.

Also, having the paladin down bottom is huge for Righteous Defense taunts. Get those spinners down asap. I barely even try to tank them now. their melee hits for poop so the mage basically solos them. If it gets ugly the shaman just puts down Rocky since I'm saving my taunts to get them to the ground.

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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:42 am

I healed up top as holy pally, and it takes a bit of getting used to but once the tank (Bear) and I worked things out it was fine.

First, we would wait until there are two webs available, then the tank calls in vent that he is taking one, and I take the other soon after.

Second, you do have a few seconds from when fire spawns before it burns through, so you can finish a cast. However, you need to move strategically. It IS worth running around the long way to make certain you have a safe spot that gives you a clear path to the middle, rather than trying to be cutsy and getting hemmed in by fire and dropped. I have used big bubble to save my ass from falling, but it is really better used in ph2.

Third, the tank is good about calling fires out. I mean yes I am looking and moving myself, but if sometimes I or the dps gets focused on something, his call can help us get out quickly.

Finally, on healing strategy. Keep in mind that although you can heal while going up or down, there are limits on targets. Consequently I know that I have time to regen mana. So I am perfectly fine using Flash of Light to keep the tank up if needed. Then I can pop Div Plea as I run for the center to drop down (1st AND 3rd drops), and it will be over about the time I land. For the brief down phase, Holy Radience and a couple heals are usually good enough till I go back up. I try to melee the boss for SoI returns while I am up, and I have a mana pot available for ph2.

I try to save my GanK for ph2, and make certain Hand of Sac is back up by then (so use it early enough, say beginning of second up phase).

Yes, when learning I failed to burn in once, and got myself hemmed in once or twice. Once I went up before the tank and got pasted by the boss. It takes a little getting used to and there are bound to be some fails until one gets accustomed to it and communicates effectively.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:51 am

I think letting a drone go up is bad, it has a cleave and may obstruct sight of web holes or present other positioning problems. If it is very weak and goes down quickly, then maybe it is only a minor foul, but it should still be avoided.

You should have enough dps that they can help briefly between spiderling phases. Two ranged do appear to be enough for spiderlings. This would leave two melee for drone plus spinners, or if there is a third ranged, then it would probably allow all three ranged to help out briefly for most drones in between spiderlings. I had a chance to do this on my mage, and just popped a few arcane blasts and sometimes CDs (as long as they would be back up for ph2) to help burn a lagging drone. Even a few shots from ranged seem to help a lot. Dots classes seem to benefit from dotting the drone as the spinners die so quikly.

Obviously for the final Drone, chances are the ranged are too busy ensuring the final spiderling wave goes down, but having it up for a few moments in ph2 isn't that bad.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby domipal » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:23 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:I think letting a drone go up is bad, it has a cleave and may obstruct sight of web holes or present other positioning problems. If it is very weak and goes down quickly, then maybe it is only a minor foul, but it should still be avoided.

You should have enough dps that they can help briefly between spiderling phases. Two ranged do appear to be enough for spiderlings. This would leave two melee for drone plus spinners, or if there is a third ranged, then it would probably allow all three ranged to help out briefly for most drones in between spiderlings. I had a chance to do this on my mage, and just popped a few arcane blasts and sometimes CDs (as long as they would be back up for ph2) to help burn a lagging drone. Even a few shots from ranged seem to help a lot. Dots classes seem to benefit from dotting the drone as the spinners die so quikly.

Obviously for the final Drone, chances are the ranged are too busy ensuring the final spiderling wave goes down, but having it up for a few moments in ph2 isn't that bad.



Main reason you don't want a drone going up is because he'll drain energy from beth and make the top phase shorter, resulting in less dps and a prolonged phase 2 which can be deadly
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Calleana » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:23 am

If you are not putting any DPS into Beth'tilac in P1 I'm interested in why you would want to prolong this phase? When my raid killed her on Sunday we had a consume go off so were already working with a full boss health bar.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Dariok » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:52 am

My raid is having trouble. Here is the log from our attempts:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qbdby67upp7jr7w5/

Here was our best attempt (attempt 8 on the logs):

Me, a rogue, and a pally healer go up top. We burn the boss to about 76% before phase 3. Down below, we have our hunters taking care of the spiderlings, our off tank and death knights are taunting the spinners down.

Everything goes swimmingly until the boss comes downstairs. The wheels fall off when the stacks get to about 15+. The healers are complaining about mana, and I am not exactly sure what the problem is.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Belloc » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:21 am

Calleana wrote:If you are not putting any DPS into Beth'tilac in P1 I'm interested in why you would want to prolong this phase? When my raid killed her on Sunday we had a consume go off so were already working with a full boss health bar.

Proper execution is its own reward, especially if you're intending to eventually do heroic mode.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Lumenactio » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:31 am

Here's your healing charts Dariok:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qbdb ... 66&e=10976

Here's ours:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/62ge ... 056&e=3460

Not sure what your gear levels are, but we were just 2/13 Heroic. So only had like 3 Chim kills before Firelands. So most of us were 359 going into Firelands or there abouts.

It may be as simple as have someone do Heroism/Timewarp/whatever the Hunter version is called. I see you were lacking that ability. That's a big buff at the end in both healing and damage. It would most likely put you over the wall.

What percent did you wipe? Our kill was 6:43, with 1 non-full time raider dps. Your wipe looks to be 6:49, so if you're just like 1 or 2 percent off, that's just get someone that can hero and nap through it.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Dariok » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:41 am

Lumenactio, we were not that close. I believe we were around 15% before the wheels fell off.

As for gear level, most of us were in 359s. We cleared all of normal, and downed Heroic Halfus a few times, however we didn't get a chance to do any more heroic modes before 4.2 dropped.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:56 am

Our kill was 6:43, with 1 non-full time raider dps. Your wipe looks to be 6:49


I want to say that at least one of my kills was more like 7:02 or something, so I think that using raid and tank CDs more judiciously, and healers using mana better could get you another 10+ secs of time on the boss. Between hero and a little extra time on boss, you might get the kill. I mean we do not send a dps up for the third devastation phase, so we generally don't get as low as 76%, I'm thinking you should be able to get a kill with hero as well.

Also, don't be afraid to try Shannox or the other bosses first. I feel that Shannox is a slightly lower dps hurdle than Beth'tilac, and will therefore help you gear up for the tougher bosses.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Juugimus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:20 am

Dariok wrote:My raid is having trouble. Here is the log from our attempts:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qbdby67upp7jr7w5/

Here was our best attempt (attempt 8 on the logs):

Me, a rogue, and a pally healer go up top. We burn the boss to about 76% before phase 3. Down below, we have our hunters taking care of the spiderlings, our off tank and death knights are taunting the spinners down.

Everything goes swimmingly until the boss comes downstairs. The wheels fall off when the stacks get to about 15+. The healers are complaining about mana, and I am not exactly sure what the problem is.



I'd say this might be a DPS problem. Your Phase 2 seemed to last longer than Lumen's (not sure how that's possible though)

But looking at the logs:

Yours

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/qbdb ... 66&e=10976

Lumen's

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/62ge ... 056&e=3460


Your raid got hit by Ember Flare (her phase 2 ability) 328 times for 6697778 damage

Lumen's raid got hit 261 times for 5753070 damage

That's almost a million extra damage your raid took in phase 2. Her drop is timed, so I'm not sure why that could be on fights that lasted the same amount of time. Did you have drones go up?

Maybe it's not a DPS problem at all, is your holy pally using aura mastery? I didn't see it in the logs so I'm not sure. Also, are you running resist aura? Maybe Lumen's raid just got a lot more resists.

What ever the problem, that extra million damage you took is likely what kept you from a kill.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Lumenactio » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:33 am

We usually use 1 dps (Arcane Mage + Bane of Havoc from our lock) and she can get her down to around 75% or so. I think the best was 74%. 10 seconds before the last Devistation, we pull the mage down so she can help with the last spiderling adds.

Tonight we had a slightly different make up (no lock + feral druid) so I stuck the boomy up with the mage till the first Devistation after which the boomy focused on Drones and Spinners and we still transitioned her at around 75%.


So our raid looked like:


Pally/DK tank/Arcane mage upstairs.
Boomy upstairs till first Devistatte then full time on drones/spinners.

Feral Druid/Hunter full time Spiderlings and helping on Spinners when they have a moment.

Combat rogue, full time spinners and drones with splash damage.

Me tanking downstairs.

Resto druid and Disc priest downstairs.


We actually wiped once during phase 1 tonight, we had weird aggro issues and what seemed like very high damage output from the spinners. Otherwise I would have left the boomy upstairs all 3 devistates.



Hey Dariok, did she eat a spiderling? If she's transitoning at 76% and you're wiping at 15%, there's something not quite right unless the fight is just taking too long. It may be a buff synergy issue? I think Hero would still make up abou 10% of the damage you missed. Or so. So you'd only need to squeeze out another 5%. The one hunter, Avrim seems much lower stage to stage than the other hunter. Is that a gearing issue? Spec issue? Pet issue?

I guess what I'm saying is you may just be missing a synergy buff that will make up that difference. Perhaps you can get that from a hunter pet. We often swap between wolf for the 5% crit, raptor for the 12% armor, or wind serpent for the 8% spell damage depending on what we're missing on any given fight/night.

If your raid team is small then perhaps you just neeed to keep at it, small improvements will most likely eventually put you over that 15%.


If your healers are really OOMing, make sure you're killing those sodding spinners. Most the raid damage in P1 comes from those. If they aren't delt with swiftly, it's game over.

Perhaps migrate 1 more dps from the adds to the spinners at least part time now and then. There are hunter specs that can solo spiderlings, the 3/31/7 or whatever, which is a marks with entrapment. It's an unusual spec, but it lets 1 hunter pretty much solo the adds. Perhaps with a single aoe if they get close to the drone from someone else. That would let you migrate hunter 2 to the spinners and drone when no spinners, and that may mitigate the healer mana issues.

I can't think of much else that should cause dramas in P1 that would lead to OOMing. You have two Hymns of Hope it looks like from the 2 priests, have the two of them Hymn before P2 starts, perhaps one of them during the bit while she's winding up for the second Devistation and one during the wind up of the third. I assume your lock is destro and is providing replenishment?

I can't think of anything else to help. Just try different dps at different roles I guess, see if any make a difference.


We started with our rogue upstairs and arcane mage downstairs on the first night. And after about 6 wipes, I changed them around. Simply so the rogue could splash the spinners while killing the drone. Little things like that made a huge difference.




EDIT: Nice find Juugimus, the difference is the absorbs which is the disc priest shields and may also includes resists? You guys had 33 for 280322 damage. We had 133 for 795345 damage. That's over 500k extra absorbs over the fight from that ability. That's a massive difference. Well, ok, not massive I guess. Average of 50k per person. But still. It may mean the difference between kill and no kill.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Dariok » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:34 pm

Thanks very much everyone, you have given me a lot to think about and focus on for the next raid. I will post up how it went.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby Daenerys » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:57 pm

Note that one dps can easily solo the spiderlings (until the last wave where you want to burn with all dps). On our first kill, we had a somewhat random pug hunter in unenchanted blues to 359 gear, around 353 ilvl, and he had no problems whatsoever killing the adds. Recently our mage has to do the adds. Once the drone is up the adds fixate on them so I believe even a melee with good aoe could handle them, as long as the first wave is handled by ranged (because of aggro). It saves a lot of dps if you don't put multiple dps on the spiderlings, as long as the drone tank knows to move a little bit if the spiderlings get close.

Also just having a holy paladin downstairs to taunt all the spinners helped a good deal too. On the ground they do very little, but pre-taunt they can do a lot of raid damage. Of course this applies to anybody who can taunt, not just a holy paladin.
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Re: [10] Beth'tilac

Postby frontallobe » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:55 am

"Note that one dps can easily solo the spiderlings (until the last wave where you want to burn with all dps). " -- unless they nurfed them this statement is a bit zealous.
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