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Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

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Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Geaux » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:31 am

Hey guys just wanted to share some of my thoughts.

Is anyone else having any similar problems?

My guild decided to up the antie and convert into 25 mans for the newest firelands release. Before we ran 2 dedicated 10 man teams both which were 5/13 and 3/13. Anyways we picked up a few extra good dps and BAM! were into 25's. So were killing trash in Firelands and everything seems to take much longer to kill in 25 than 10 mans. Also we get to Shannox and killing him feels like it takes ages! All of our dps is in the 18-24k range on the fight. In comparison when we split into 10 mans and go in and kill him or clear trash it takes a fraction of the time to get it done. We also have several people DCing in Firelands on 25 mans and key players always lagging out. All of these people are able to walk into 10 man and not have 1 problem and run graphics on high or even the ultra settings. It has gotten so bad with the lag and DC's that people have graphics truned to minimum and all addons including DBM/Big wigs, omen, etc... turned off and yet while it helps we still have the same frustrating issues night after night. The turmoil this server/computer performance is wrecking our progression. So much so that we have had to have people raid 10 mans every day last week to stay competitive on our servers progression race.

Any shared frustrations, tips, resolutions, or advice would be greatly appreciated. I could go into detail with numerous examples we are having with the lag and DC's but I'm sure everyone doesnt want to read a 5,000 word essay on some poor shmucks frustrations.

-Thanks in advance
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:00 am

I play 10-mans, and we have some lag/DC issues but I can't yet tell if it is substantially worse than the prior tier although it does feel a little bit worse. Tuning-wise I haven't tried 25m yet so I cannot compare.

As an observation, it seems that people are having a lot of trouble with fight mechanics from some reason. I mean the number of groups that are getting even 1 T12 boss down seems to be less than the groups that could get at least 1 T11 heroic down. Its nice for me, as my guild has been sccessfull and is way up in the rankings.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby PsiVen » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:04 am

There were some nasty server issues going on last night, but I've definitely noticed that 25-mans are much more graphically demanding. Not sure why it would take you longer to clear though.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:50 am

I don't have exhaustive experience with 10-man (at least not on the same character as I do on 25-man), but Ragnaros definitely seemed easier on 10-man than on 25.

The major difference is the Sons phase. I feel like the health scaling they put in was a bit too drastic - in 10's it's almost trivially easy to slow all of them, in 25's it's quite difficult. There are 8 sons in both difficulty levels, but they have 165,000 HP in 10-man and 665,000 HP in 25-man (4x the health). You generally don't have 4x the DPS players, you have about 2.5x. So the sons phase has a higher DPS check in 25-man than 10-man.

That could just be a coordination issue as well, since on 10-man everyone basically picks one spawn point and nukes one son down to 50%, then helps on any stragglers. You put high DPS players and stuns on the closest ones, but otherwise it's pretty easy to coordinate. On 25-man, you still only have 8 sons, but now you might have 15-17 DPS players, so approximately 2 each. You have a lot more flexibility about who DPS's what and probably have more stuns available, but unless you make somewhat more explicit assignments than we did, you end up having a bunch of people nuke the close sons to ~10% while the farther ones glide right in and reach the hammer.

I think if they were to drop the Sons' HP to around 500k on 25-man, it would be a little more evenly balanced. It's still a higher DPS check (~3x that of the 10-man version) but the extra flexibility helps cover the difference.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:16 am

I think the idea is supposed to be you're expected to use additional knockbacks you are almost certain to have in 25 to control sons, while on 10 they want to to be able to control them with just DPSing them to 50% for the snare to apply. But given that it takes about 1 nuke and an autoattack to bring a son on 10m down to 50% (depending on class anyway), 10 feels fairly simple since DPS is simpler than DPS+control ability.

Heroic Rag I don't know if the disparity will still exist, or the lack of # of raid cooldowns and roles will screw 10 mans more than 25 like it did on Sinestra (not having a CD for every P3 breath sucked, not having room for an extra tank or a pally tank to reset spit stacks sucked).

Major Domo has a similar HP related simplification on 10, namely by sitting in a phase slightly longer, you can kill him without incurring so many transitions that he starts doing Flame Orbs or Searing Seeds - since the trigger for those abilities is number of transitions and not boss HP, with sufficient gear you can just increase duration of each phase enough to keep number of transitions low and not have one or both of those mechanics begin - given the low HP on 10, this is probably much easier to do on 10. Our first kill he did neither Flame Orb nor Searing Seeds. Our second kill he did Seeds, but we still killed him before having to take another transition or two and having him start doing Orbs. This also benefits bringing an extra healer instead of an extra DPS, since shortening the fight by bringing 16% more dps doesn't help as much as reducing the number of transitions by bringing 50% more healers.

Of course, we had the DPS and healing for that because it's normal mode and we're in 372 gear. This will just bite us in the ass when we get to heroic mode, because we won't be able to game the transition count on heroic, and will be forced to learn mechanics we should have learned in normal mode already.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby warden » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:38 am

I find your comments really interesting Theck; we had the exact opposite experience. Our 25 man has a full-length stun for every son, and a secondary stun for most of them, plus knockbacks, and really that phase is more a of a healer-mana-regen one for us. Our 10 man alt run, however, had a bit of trouble getting them all slowed in time (granted, we only got about 4 pulls on him in 10 man). Not taking one side or the other, just find the different observations interesting.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jul 13, 2011 10:43 am

You generally don't have 4x the DPS players, you have about 2.5x.


You are seriously overstating the dps of a 10m vs 25m. Almost all of the 10mans I've done on challenging content have run 3 healers, 5 dps. Whereas 25mans almost always run 15+ dps, so I think 3x for number of dps (15/5), plus a possibility that a 10m raid may not have full buffs so each 25m dps may do a little bit extra (a 10m raid may be able to tune for full buffs, but I don't think this is common for most people).

4x may be over tuned, but 2.5x would be faceroll undertuned, and even 3x would probably be undertuned. And then there is the risk that controlling 8 adds with 10 people, some of them healers and lower dps tanks could be an issue requiring much more judicious use of slows, roots, stuns.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:45 am

I've done Ragnaros on 10 and 25 (10 first). 25 sucked because more people to take too long to learn what to do. Yeah, my answer has nothing to do with fight mechanics or tuning.....just straight up herpin-n-derpin probabilities :)

Although, the adds I found much easier on 10. Considering the fact that I could *almost* solo two of them as the tank with glyphed Holy Wrath. It seems easier for my guild to get confused and do the wrong thing the more people there are.

On 10, the first time we made it to phase 3 we killed the boss. On 25, we had people slowly getting picked off, and meteors were stupid crazy. Wiped to enrage a couple times and got to the point where if someone died early in the fight we'd just wipe it because we knew DPS was tight for us. Wasn't an issue in 10.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Shathus » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:40 pm

I could be wrong, but a lot of the people who said they're in a 25 man guild, but did it on 10s (either first, or as alts), I'd probably also bet that group of 10 were your more quality raiders and you trimmed out some of the slackers from your 25. You'd be much better overall raid execution making something seem easier on 10s than 25s that way as well. Granted that's not to say you have 10-15 crappy raiders in your 25s, but you get the idea.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby inthedrops » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:09 pm

Shathus wrote:I could be wrong, but a lot of the people who said they're in a 25 man guild, but did it on 10s (either first, or as alts), I'd probably also bet that group of 10 were your more quality raiders and you trimmed out some of the slackers from your 25. You'd be much better overall raid execution making something seem easier on 10s than 25s that way as well. Granted that's not to say you have 10-15 crappy raiders in your 25s, but you get the idea.


That's reasonable, I assume that of others doing the same thing as well. However, not in my case. We ran out of time on 25 (raided for 4 hours and it was time to quit), asked for volunteers to try to field a 10 man, and had exactly 11 people willing to carry on as a 10 man. No cherry picking at all. It was the end of a raid night before that first reset.

Also, wasn't trying to argue that one is tuned differently. I think that's really hard to tell. My argument was a simple "For my guild, it felt harder to get all 25 to execute".
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:10 pm

warden wrote:I find your comments really interesting Theck; we had the exact opposite experience. Our 25 man has a full-length stun for every son, and a secondary stun for most of them, plus knockbacks, and really that phase is more a of a healer-mana-regen one for us. Our 10 man alt run, however, had a bit of trouble getting them all slowed in time (granted, we only got about 4 pulls on him in 10 man). Not taking one side or the other, just find the different observations interesting.


I would imagine it would be much harder on an alt run. I'm comparing 10 members of our 25-man raids going in and killing it after we ran out of time on 25-man attempts. So the gear disparity is exactly nil, and you can assume that all 10 players know their class well - neither of which are good assumptions for alt runs (I'm certainly nowhere near as practiced on my warlock as I am on Theck).

We had 5 or 6 paladins in 25-man, so we had a full-length stun for many of them and Holy Wraths to go around, but it didn't seem to matter. We weren't coordinated enough to get them all down in time, and stun DRs kept biting us in the ass. I suspect it's just a matter of practice and/or planning, as well as lining up people to use knockbacks/stuns intelligently (i.e. when the adds get close).

That said, in 10-man the Sons phase was completely trivial. Not even remotely difficult - I can solo one add down to 50% by myself as a tank. The difference in difficulty is incredible, because that phase takes no coordination or planning in 10-man apart from "everyone pick an add, stun anything that gets close."

Hrobertgar wrote:
You generally don't have 4x the DPS players, you have about 2.5x.


You are seriously overstating the dps of a 10m vs 25m. Almost all of the 10mans I've done on challenging content have run 3 healers, 5 dps. Whereas 25mans almost always run 15+ dps, so I think 3x for number of dps (15/5), plus a possibility that a 10m raid may not have full buffs so each 25m dps may do a little bit extra (a 10m raid may be able to tune for full buffs, but I don't think this is common for most people).

Eh, maybe. I was assuming a 2 heal / 2 tank / 6 DPS 10-man, and a 6 heal / 2 tank / 17 DPS 25-man. 17/6 ~ 2.8, and it goes down if you bump up to 7 or 8 healers. But 3-healing shifts those numbers up a good bit.

Raid buffs aren't a great argument though. Missing one or two raid buffs isn't likely to make more than a 5-10% difference. Debuffs are a bigger factor, but on sons that's basically completely irrelevant because nobody's going to apply every debuff to every son, especially when those 2-3 GCDs are far better spent soloing one of them.

Hrobertgar wrote:4x may be over tuned, but 2.5x would be faceroll undertuned, and even 3x would probably be undertuned. And then there is the risk that controlling 8 adds with 10 people, some of them healers and lower dps tanks could be an issue requiring much more judicious use of slows, roots, stuns.

Except it really isn't. A tank can solo one son to 50% very effectively, even one of the closer ones. You don't even need stuns if you're on a far one.

Maybe 2.5-3x would be faceroll undertuned, but that would be just about right given that the 10-man version is faceroll undertuned.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Vort » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:13 pm

Theck is pretty much right on the money with the sons in Rag.

If you think about it, a Paly tank can store up 3 Holy Power before Rag goes down and get a Son to 50% with just a few GCD's. Hell, any tank could do that and better than a Paladin tank. 165k HP is nothing for a DPS, practically any DPS can do 165k damage with a few burst abilities in 1-3 GCD's.

The other HUGE issue with Rag 25 is (as an Australian I witnessed this first hand) the Disconnect Boss during Seeds. We had so many people Disconnect every time those blasted adds got AoE'd down. We were lucky if only 2 people DC'd during the fight, normally it was 5-6 plus. The intensity of PC strain and bandwidth hogging that happens during some of the fight was the biggest thing we faced before we could kill him. Even on the kill attempt we had multiple DC's and some people couldn't even do anything during Seeds because their PC completely froze up for 20 seconds. I can't imagine this would be anywhere near as bad on 10 as it was on 25.

I was at the other side of the raiding scene in t11, my guild was 10m and we were mildly successful but disbanded after issues with attendance and having viable raid comps. In 10m just doing trash clears I've found that killing all of the trash to make shannox spawn takes less time than on 25. This was a huge hinderance to us last night as we went in to try shannox heroic and got him to 50% on the first pull. It took us the better part of 45 minutes to clear trash because people were having DC and load issues into the instance (supposedly fixed by the restarts). Then by the time we had somewhat refined the strategy to dealing with him, the instance servers began to restart. Then the server itself went on a restart. The officers figured that by the time we got back in after two restarts and recleared trash we'd have maybe 1 or 2 attempts due to raid times. We missed out on approximately 1 hour and a bit of raid time because of this and it cost us an effective night of raiding since we only go for about 3 hours. Now I'm going off-topic, but the trash thing is something slightly relevant.

What else I've noticed is that not only is the scaling of HP been reverted this tier (last tier 10 was harder on most of the heroic encounters and anyone who had done both was well aware of this). Domo is one example, Alysrazor is also a decent example where on 10 the tanks can solo the hatchlings without any issues at all. The HP is lower on 10 by a HUGE margin, 31.5M on 25 and 20M on 10, why? the imprint buff is the same so why should the HP be different if the tank is able to solo them on 10 but only sometimes (with procs/crits etc) on 25 be able to. It frees up more time for the DPS to do other things such as being on the boss or on the adds. When we killed the boss I topped the damage at 56 or so Million damage. If we were doing this on 10M then this would mean I could have killed 2 adds by myself and done 80% of the third ones HP. To me it just seems like a discrepancy much the same way the Maloriak Black phase adds were initially practically unkillable on 10H due to their HP levels.

Rhyolith was certainly a bit tweaky for 10 due to the gimmick of the fight and how easy/hard it was to turn him in 10 or 25. Beth'tilac was apparently an absolute joke for 10 (according to my friend who 1 shot it the first time they went in there), but I can't really comment on it. Overall there will probably be some balancing over the next few weeks much the same way we saw balancing for 10-25 in last tier.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Fetzie » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:41 am

The encounter devs probably assumed that you would have (more) spare dps that could help out on the chicken carcasses, while that would probably not be the case in a ten man raid, hence the lower health pools on the adds.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby melisandyr » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:00 am

What's the different dps in your 25 man raid when placed against a 10 man team?
Based on my server's experience, maybe an average of 330k against 110k (easy maths) for a ratio of 3:1

Whilst hp is important in 25 vs 10, on the sons being 665k vs 165k for a ratio of 4:1

There are 8 sons of ragnaros. In a ten man team, that's 5 dps on 1 each, 2 tanks on 1 each, and 2 healers snaring until your best/most useful dps can get to the 8th add.

On 25 with 2 tanks, 7 healers, that gives 16 dps. That's 2 for each son.

I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption to say that you can expect each of the dps to have 1 stun each. Let's speculate that the second of these stuns will only be half as effective due to diminishing returns. That gives a factor of 1.5 as much dps time in 25 as 10s on the adds.

Multiply 3 times as much dps x 1.5 as much time for 4.5:1 health ratio, or (approximately) 665k against 165k.

That said, there will always be differences between 10 and 25. That's why you can't toggle the difficulty. Fights that require space (Al akir) or have cut down version of mechanics (Ragnaros) might well be easier. But encounters that require you to split your raid are often more difficult (Rhyolith and Alysrazor perhaps?). Seems that Blizz had this in mind for Beth'tilac, and trivialised it a little (on the assumption that Beth'tilac is the first boss in Firelands - a bit of a leap).

I think Blizz must have had the previous tier in mind when scaling down the encounters for tens this time too. I've seen several blues that have stated that they feel the "hardocore" progress teams mostly raid 25s, so perhaps they don't mind this so much. But if they see lots of the top 100 ranking kills being in tens, perhaps this will change their encounter design strategy.

So in conclusion, I think there needs to be account of number of stuns/slows available in the calculation. But I do see some encounters being "cut down" versions of 25s. I only raid tens now, but I do see 10 being a lot less forgiving generally, because of the fewer number of combat resses. This does affect the learning curve on certain bosses.
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Re: Firelands 10 v.s. 25 tuning / performance

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:54 am

I don't do 25s, and haven't since half the group kept DCing on the pull in Wrath.

I think 10-mans become more difficult when not perfectlty executed, because of the impact a single player makes to the total output. A dead DPS makes a 20% difference in output. A dead healer cuts healing by 33%.

There is one battle res to use, but things chain awfully quickly. That dead healer can get a res, but by the time that healer is back in action, someone else could be dead. In 10-man you don't always have a druid handy for the glyphed res, so the healer can come back with stuff-all mana.

With everyone alive and executing perfectly, 25s are probably tuned tougher than 10s, but by then it doesn't matter so much anyway - it's the learning curve where tuning is critical, and people do die when learnig fights.
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