Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

[Mcduffie]

I'm not talking about a frightened goat herder carrying an AK. There aren't many cases of "Hey, arrest that guy, he looks suspicious." Most people that are incarcerated have to actually commit a crime. As in: fire at US GIs, plant IEDs, be in possession of explosive material, etc. We don't walk around arresting everyone with an AK. We get it, everyone has one out here. We also get that a lot of people that do bad things are what is called "ten dollar taliban." The Taliban pays an individual ten bucks to dig a hole. The next individual gets paid ten bucks to place a bag. The next individual gets paid ten bucks to fill the hole. But I'm not talking about those guys either. When we catch the guy giving the ten dollar bills, the men behind the practice; those are the ones we need to squeeze for info. If normal interrogation doesn't work, use torture. And use it to the fullest extent necessary.

[sarcasm]You know, just to clarify. Since my first post consisted of "ARGH! TORTURE EVERYONE ON THE PLANET WITHOUT MERCY UNTIL THEY DIE!"[/sarcasm]

[Fivelives]

There aren't many cases of "Hey, arrest that guy, he looks suspicious."

Wrong. Have you read the rest of the thread yet?

[Candiru]

One person doesn't grab someone shifty off the street and torture them, no. But what does happen is one person sees someone he thinks is suspicious, and pulls them in for questioning. They get handed off to someone else, who hands them off to someone else.

Somewhere along the line someone gets it into their head this guy *is* a badguy, even though there he was only brought in on one person's suspicion. He then ends up being tortured for information which the original person who brought him in would find despicable.

Military is incredibly monolithic, and a simple "He looks a but like wanted person X, bring him in for questioning" quickly becomes "He *is* person X, torture him". Everyone thinks that what they do is OK at each point, but the overall effect is terrible.

[Dantriges]

Deleted.

[Passionario]

Through evidence. Innocent until proven guilty ring any bells? I'm not talking about ripping random people off the street, you boobs. I'm talking about proven-guilty enemies of the state.

Egyptian soldiers weren't raping random women grabbed off the street, either. Only insurgents and enemies of the state.

[Fridmarr]

Wasn´t one of the problems releasing innocent Guantanamo inmates that the US feared they would turn against the US after being subjected to their treatment.

No. Even if the premises made to make that assertion were true, it still wouldn't make sense.

[Dantriges]

Deleted.

[Hrobertgar]

Ok and as an argument against torture. It´s used in secrecy and covered up. US allies don´t like it, the world doesn´t like it, the own populace is very divided about the issue and probably a vast majority doesn´t condone it (no, don´t have numbers but I can hope). Probably even the vast majority in the military or intelligence services doesn´t want to have anything to do with it. So even if you believe that torture is justified, you have a bunch of guys with the permission to abuse prisoners and no one really likes to do oversight. At least the oversight stops somewhere within the organisation itself. And organisations tend to cover up their internal issues, especially so sensitive ones.

You are making this out to be a bunch of americans going around picking random poeple up and viciously torturing them.

Firstly, these are not random people. It is usually very obvious if someone is a farmer mostly hiding and defending himself or an enemy shooting at you from cover.

Secondly, waterboarding is widely regarded as being the most extreme interrogation method carried out by Americans (and only agaisnt a few terror masterminds), and only a minority feel that it is torture. Secondly, if you are a fan of the tv show '24' and most people are, then how can you say some methods aren't justified during a 'ticking time-bomb' scenario? Do you really believe that it is not ok to waterboard a hardened terror mastermind to learn about some attack on a major metropolitan area?

It is also widely regarded that most other nations routinely do far worse than waterboarding to any political dissidents. Check out what Saddaam Husein did to his people, or what any other muslim government does to people when it gets their hands on them.

Also, consider that the treatment prisoners receive at Guantanomo (and the Red Cross has visited there) is better than they would get in a prison system anywhere outside the US?

[Dantriges]

Deleted

[Fridmarr]

Ah well, read that interrogators said that to Gitmo inmates.

Honestly, it's such a ridiculous assertion I'm amazed it was ever repeated, but then the media is amazingly stupid. First, interrogators...yeah people notorious for A. telling the truth and B. having any concept of insider knowledge about the government's broader foreign policy. They are only about 15 pay grades short.

I haven't read your other replies, I can only imagine their content, but lets say whatever you are spouting is all true. That the US is grabbing anyone and everyone off the street, incarcerating them at Gitmo and torturing them.

So now, we've been engaging in armed conflict on multiple fronts for 10 years killing thousands of people, are currently dropping bombs in (at least) two additional countries where we don't have ground forces, frequently come to the defense of the most hated country in the middle east, and of course we are taking aforementioned people from their homes/families to torture them, among other things. And somehow you believe that we won't release the innocents at Gitmo because WE ARE SCARED SOME OF THEM MIGHT RETALIATE???

I've heard a lot of bat shit insane stuff said out the US, but wow, if we have a fear of retaliation we have an amazingly odd way of showing it.

[Dantriges]

Actually the first half of my reply that seemed to bother you so much that you stopped reading after the first sentence was how could this rumour have been started and not that´s its true. I removed the whole thing.

[Fivelives]

I think the argument he's going for is that "we might as well keep them there, since if they weren't terrorists before they went in, they would be by the time they come out".

I can see the merit in that argument. I mean, hell - wouldn't you be pissed at say, East Westfuckistan if they grabbed you off the street and threw you into the equivalent of Gitmo? I'd go back and bomb something, if it happened to me. I don't think it's much of a stretch to imagine that the innocents who've been in Gitmo for awhile wouldn't think exactly the same way.

[Candiru]

The way torture is used in 24 is ridiculous. If jack Bauer tried that in real life, the hardened terrorist he tortures first would give him a name of someone he doesn't like as the mastermind. Jack would then go and torture this innocent person until he gets give someone else's name. He'd repeat this process of torturing innocent people until they give him another name until he found a farmer (who would have some fertiliser stockpiled as farmers often do.) Jack would then conclude this was the terrorist mastermind, kill him and claim he'd foiled a plot.

[Mcduffie]

You peace-loving, weed-smoking, "24" watching hippies need to get off my lawn.

[Maverick13]

You peace-loving, weed-smoking, "24" watching hippies need to get off my lawn.

right on the first and second - so wrong on the third and fourth