Remove Advertisements

Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:29 pm

That´s what lynchmobs are for. :wink:

Yeah I know it´s not a serious proposal from passionario but nice food for thought.

Well and now that drugs are illegal you need some new jobs for drug dealing gangs. And the benefit is, protection money would be for actual protection. Pay the gangs in your area to keep out these pesky former criminals. Or employ security companies. The unemployed police officers need a job, too.

Or go old school and have a big family, so you have relatives to avenge slights against you. We are big on family values.
Or at least there will be new bonds between the neighbours. Seting up patrols with torches and pitchforks eh shotguns and flashlights will bond people together.

Ah well, IIRC some areas in the world have setups like this, even with a police force and laws.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:56 am

To clarify before I begin a small rant: I have only read the first page of this thread.

When it comes to the rights of individuals to protest the government, I am more than willing to support their rights. They're the rights I fight for, and the rights I intend to die for. If someone wants to say the US Government raped them, they're more than welcome to. What the Egyptian military did to the women in their country for making a similar statement is atrocious at best. They deserve quick, harsh retaliation for something like that. They should be stripped of their rank, and thrown into prison; at the very least. However, that will more than likely never happen.

As per the US's proposed "stupidity?" Sometimes bad things happen. Whether that be a flash-bang grenade shooting flames onto a blanket and killing a little girl, or a couple of stupid cops shooting at a concrete alligator. They had no intention to do an innocent harm. But sometimes there's collateral damage.

As to the torture of war criminals? I say we torture them more. If the information we can get from them means that PFC Joe Snuffy can go home and hold his wife after his year in Afghanistan, so be it. War is harsh, it's mean, and it knows no bounds. We must be unrelenting to win. If I had, within my control, an individual who planted an IED or the like; I would torture him without mercy. Anyone who threatens the lives and freedoms of my fellow Americans deserves nothing better.

Also: Where do you think that the tortuers learned these techniques? Most special forces/SERE/interrogation specialists have had all of this done to them. Just for the sake of training. We're trained to expect extreme torture techniques from any country we fight. Yet we're expected to treat our captives with air conditioning and three meals a day. Our ROE's consist of "don't shoot until shot at," minimal collateral damage, and minimal suffering to the enemy. But day in and day out, we watch the mangled bodies of our brothers come back in body bags after suffering a gruesome death. Torture the shit out of those terrorist bastards. And leave a cigarette burn for me.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:09 am

The argument that "torture is OK as you get useful intel" is wrong, as you do *not* get useful intel. You get lies made up on the spot to desperately try to get you to end the torture. People will admit to any sin you ask them to under torture, but it doesn't mean they are guilty.

The people you do torture who do know something might tell it to you under torture, but they will also tell you a whole host of lies which they think you want to hear, rendering any intel you get out of it useless.

Torture isn't any use, other than for manufacturing fake "evidence" to "convict" innocent people.
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:30 am

Candiru wrote:The argument that "torture is OK as you get useful intel" is wrong, as you do *not* get useful intel. You get lies made up on the spot to desperately try to get you to end the torture. People will admit to any sin you ask them to under torture, but it doesn't mean they are guilty.

The people you do torture who do know something might tell it to you under torture, but they will also tell you a whole host of lies which they think you want to hear, rendering any intel you get out of it useless.

Torture isn't any use, other than for manufacturing fake "evidence" to "convict" innocent people.

There's a process to torture. It's not just what you see on the television set. Inducing Stockholm Syndrome is always the end goal. Anyone who has been through basic training has received a mild version of this. For a few weeks, your captor is extremely rough with you. After a certain period of time, he starts giving you freedoms. Small freedoms, and one by one. After a while, your leash continues to extend. And by that time, you're hooked. You no longer see the tortuer as an enemy, but a friend who has only done what's best for you. There's a lot more to it, as well. But, take a class or something for that.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:41 am

There's merit to the argument that torture doesn't get you anything. SERE training is pretty much the same worldwide when it comes to resisting torture.

You will break. You will tell them exactly what they want to know. The idea is to start lying early, and make your lies believable enough that they can't tell the difference between the lies you tell and the truth.

Regarding stockholm syndrome - religious fanatics are notoriously resistant to the idea of identifying with a captor. There has to be some common ground between captor and prisoner in order for it to take effect - something that they both can agree on. The hatred they feel toward us is ... difficult ... at best, to overcome.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3029
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:22 am

You can induce stockholm syndrome without torture though. You don't need to start with water boarding to achieve that, surely?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:40 am

Sure, there's always lying. But what happens when you know your buddy is in the next room? What if his lie contradicts yours? What if he's telling the truth, and your lie contradicts that? What if the intel doesn't support your lie?

Sure, you give a lie after your fingernails have been ripped out. Buys you a little bit of a time. Then they confirm with intel that it is, in fact, a lie. Guess what? Fingernails gone from the other hand. Tell me a lie again after that.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:58 am

The objective is to make your lies believable enough that they're essentially indistinguishable from the truth. You start with the most outlandish lies (the little green men from mars are the TRUE power!), then move from there to the more believable lies.

And who cares if your buddy in the next room is contradicting you with his lies? The more misinformation you can feed them, the better. It makes getting the truth out of you like finding a single needle in a stack of identical needles.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3029
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:08 am

But what if the person is innocent and doesn't know anything? You'll keep ripping fingernails out as they tell you lie after lie which doesn't check out with intel.

Then what, you say your sorry?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:32 am

And therein lies the problem. How do you tell the difference between someone who is innocent, and someone who's just really highly trained to resist torture and interrogations? You really can't.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3029
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Mcduffie » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:10 am

Fivelives wrote:And therein lies the problem. How do you tell the difference between someone who is innocent, and someone who's just really highly trained to resist torture and interrogations? You really can't.

Through evidence. Innocent until proven guilty ring any bells? I'm not talking about ripping random people off the street, you boobs. I'm talking about proven-guilty enemies of the state.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:13 am

So you are going to give them a fair jury trial before starting torture?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:26 am

I think he's talking about folks picked up on the battlefield with a weapon in hand.
Never Pug a random Troll Heroic, always wait for the guild group.

Hrobearina - 85 Healer - space goat
Hrobertgar - 85 Tank - human
Hrobernia - 85 Arcane - human
Hrobanka - 85 BM - elf
Hrobertgar
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:42 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:34 am

If they aren't in uniform though, how do you distinguish between a frightened farmer clutching a gun for self-defence, and a hardened insurgent?
Image
Candiru
 
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 12:21 pm

Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:11 am

Deleted.
Last edited by Dantriges on Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Dantriges
 
Posts: 1252
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:39 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest