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Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:24 am

I may be able to do the first test, however we may throw our warrior in front of him tonight instead, or I may abandon block cap entirely for that fight depending on what we decide will give us the fastest kill. I was first inclined to go for block cap because inferno strike is blockable, but after finding it can't miss that means I'm missing 5% ctc vs that anyway - somewhat CDable but as you have to underheal the fight at the moment to stand a chance at killing it fast enough, interruptions in streams of heals are reasonably common.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:22 pm

I was up in front of Baleroc tonight again, this time with 103.47% CTC. Over the course of the night I took 4 unblocked hits on auto-attack, but 3 of them are after being combat ressed and without having food buff/elixirs on. The only one I can't account for is this one - when I died I lost 90 mastery well fed and elixir so those were in place, and I had motw and battle shout when the swing happened. Previous and following swings are blocked/avoided and it should be far enough into the try that I wouldn't be moving with the boss at all anyway. It was the only unaccounted for hit in over 2000 swings, so I'm not going to lose too much sleep over it.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby theckhd » Mon Jul 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Interesting. So based on that one (admittedly limited) data set, it looks like you need around 103.5% for Baleroc. Very odd.

I won't be in front of a boss again for two weeks (vacation), but I'll see whether I can tool together a gear set that reaches 103.5% to collect more data.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:04 am

Rhiannon wrote:The only one I can't account for is this one - when I died I lost 90 mastery well fed and elixir so those were in place, and I had motw and battle shout when the swing happened.


Also Windwalk was active.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:56 am

I think the attack was blocked.

Taking this 10 second period when the unblocked attack happened, Rhia starts at full health 222300 (1*BoG) and ends at full health 296400 (3*BoG) shown by the overheal before and after (enough to eliminate server side/client side healing issues).

During that time -

Healed +338448
Damage -308131
2*BoG -74100

Total = -43783

If blocked -

Healed +338448
Damage -262540
2*BoG -74100

Total = 1808

The 1808 difference is a mix of using an approximate value of Rhia's Health and general WoL tomfoolery (guesses at absorbs etc).

----

Baleroc is fine in my mind
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:15 am

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that this is either:

1) a WoL parsing error in which blocks are erroneously being interpreted as hits, or
2) a combat log reporting error causing blocks to be recorded as hits.

I suppose I could believe either of those, though it would be nice to know which. Do you happen to have the original combat log files Rhi? We only need a short section of it right around the event (which you should be able to search for by timestamp).

The next question is whether this same analysis applies to his earlier parses. If so, then the 103.5% hypothesis is probably invalid, and Baleroc is just a normal boss.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby lythac » Tue Jul 12, 2011 8:30 am

Yes, but I can't see how it would be a parsing error as it would need to add the blocked amount to the hit amount and report that as the hit.

Image

Is the health over that time period and what would have happened if the hit was actually a block.



It isn't the first time the heals/damage haven't added up in a parse, I can't remember what the outcome was then. Will look it up.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Rhiannon » Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:31 pm

Trying to get a hold of the original log, I believe the logger still has it. Tonight I tried 102.4x just to see if I'd get any unblocked hits and if it was all in my head; the second try produced two hits.

All expected buffs were up and I checked my CTC % before each try. I switched back to 103.47 a few tries later (I think there's one more unblocked hit before I did), I only saw one hit in the rest of the night and that was the second hit of a pull so may well have been a positioning thing.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby braiel » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:43 pm

I'm not sure it'll help any and it's a fairly small amount of logs but I have some http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/37635/ that might be of some use I'm not sure if I was at 102.4 in the 10 man logs but I definitely was in the logs from this week and from last week as well
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby lythac » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:23 am

Rhiannon wrote:The second try produced two hits.


They both look like hits. The second one has something of interest with client/world latency and retroactively applying absorbs.

The section of interest is here - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-a ... %22Rhia%22

Code: Select all
[01]   [19:33:42.478] Rhia gains 27 mana from Earion's Replenishment
[02]   [19:33:42.487] Rhia gains Illuminated Healing from Svartie (Remaining: 12311)
[03]   [19:33:42.521] Svartie's Illuminated Healing fades from Rhia (Remaining: 0)
[04]   [19:33:42.609] Rhia gains 808 mana from Rhia's Sanctuary
[05]   [19:33:42.702] Adaqeu casts Power Word: Shield on Rhia
[06]   [19:33:42.912] Rhia gains Power Word: Shield from Adaqeu (Remaining: 251773)
[07]   [19:33:42.920] Svartie Beacon of Light Rhia +32528
[08]   [19:33:42.920] Adaqeu Heal Rhia +*195261*
[09]   [19:33:42.920] Adaqeu Glyph of Power Word: Shield Rhia +49447 (O: 13455)
[10]   [19:33:43.081] Rhia gains 703 mana from Rhia's Judgements of the Wise
[11]   [19:33:43.357] Baleroc hits Rhia 147536 (A: 251773)
[12]   [19:33:43.460] Harison Divine Light Rhia +*0* (O: 237843)
[13]   [19:33:43.604] Rhia gains 27 mana from Earion's Replenishment
[14]   [19:33:43.691] Rhia gains 1 extra attacks from Rhia's Reckoning
[15]   [19:33:43.703] Rhia gains Divine Aegis from Adaqeu (Remaining: 77491)
[16]   [19:33:43.703] Rhia's Inspiration is refreshed by Adaqeu
[17]   [19:33:43.703] Rhia afflicted by Weakened Soul from Adaqeu
[18]   [19:33:43.751] Adaqeu's Power Word: Shield fades from Rhia (Remaining: 0)
[19]   [19:33:43.751] Adaqeu's Divine Aegis fades from Rhia (Remaining: 0)
[20]   [19:33:43.872] Rhia gains 703 mana from Rhia's Judgements of the Wise
[21]   [19:33:44.092] Rhia gains Illuminated Healing from Harison (Remaining: 37608)
[22]   [19:33:44.125] Alieth Earth Shield Rhia +*9857*
[23]   [19:33:44.545] Harison Beacon of Light Rhia +16960
[24]   [19:33:44.607] Baleroc hits Rhia Dodge
[25]   [19:33:44.896] Rhia gains 703 mana from Rhia's Judgements of the Wise
[26]   [19:33:44.932] Svartie Beacon of Light Rhia +33711
[27]   [19:33:44.948] Rhia gains 807 mana from Rhia's Sanctuary
[28]   [19:33:45.373] Svartie Beacon of Light Rhia +9517 (O: 6795)
[29]   [19:33:45.657] Rhia gains 27 mana from Earion's Replenishment
[30]   [19:33:45.775] Harison Divine Light Rhia +0 (O: 118313)
[31]   [19:33:45.775] Baleroc hits Rhia 271301 (A: 37608, B: 138785)
[32]   [19:33:45.854] Rhia gains 703 mana from Rhia's Judgements of the Wise
[33]   [19:33:46.126] Rhia gains 1 extra attacks from Rhia's Reckoning
[34]   [19:33:46.168] Harison's Illuminated Healing fades from Rhia (Remaining: 0)
[35]   [19:33:46.168] Svartie Beacon of Light Rhia +0 (O: 33536)
[36]   [19:33:46.180] Rhia gains 808 mana from Rhia's Sanctuary


Rhia is at 100% HP when the hit [11] connects, we know this from the heals [7][8][9][12] with [9][12] having overheal. [12] occurs before [11] but is reported afterwards due to client/world latency.

Rhia is hit [11] for 147536 (A: 251773) the absorb [6] being a PW:S.

Rhia returns to 100% HP from the heals [22][23][26][28][30] with [28][30] having overheal. These heals total 70045.

There is a negative difference of 77491, which is a Divine Aegis [15] created by a heal [8] preceding the hit [11]. The Divine Aegis [15] is not applied as an absorb to the hit [11], instead it fades [19] which is normal behaviour after the absorb occurs or the buff expires.


a) The hit [11] is 70045 (A: 329264) OR b) An absorb [19] has acted as a heal and not shown in the combat log.

Edit - a) is what should have happened but b) seems to have happened

Seems absorbs can have the same issues that heals suffer on instagib bosses (Gormok). So if you are planning on shielding the tank via an absorb created by a heal, timing needs to be good.


I left a hit [31] and heal [35] showing overheal happening 393ms after a hit [31].
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Fierss » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:52 am

Two thoughts in response to the windwalk idea:

The extra dodge from windwalk bumps block off the combat table for the extra dodge, but there could be a small gap after the buff fades before the block gets added back on. This may not actually be possible, depending on how the combat table works. My gut says it shouldn't work this way, but I don't know if it's possible.

It might also be possible that dodge DRs aren't recalculating immediately after the buff fades, making your ~2000 dodge rating devalued as if you had ~2600.


As Durability says below, this seems to be an encounter specific issue, so those are unlikely at best. I'd put my money on it being an interaction with absorbs (which are enormous on this fight due to the buff, obviously), and probably just blocks being documented as hits.
Last edited by Fierss on Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Durability » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:19 pm

If the issue was with Windwalk, we'd presumably see it on other bosses, so I don't think that's it Fierss.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Slootbag » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:24 pm

First time poster, long time reader.

Image

Image
Image

Just going to post some data here on our Baleroc 25H pulls I've been seeing over the nights, as I too am having issues with this block "bug". Seems (obviously) Inferno can't miss, leading to the higher % of hits that were clean and landed, however both parses showed a 3.7% clean hit rate from melee, with a roughly 2.7% miss rate. This is data over 39 pulls of the boss, most pulls lasting over 40-75% of the fight. I am at 102.46% consistently, and there were barely any wipes where I ressed and got crushed again right away before re-applying elixirs/buffs (obviously food mastery buff would be missing).

Based on what I've been reading here I'll try to bump up a gear set to 103.4%+ and 106.8%+ for next attempts as my gear should be capable. And see what difference if any that makes.

Slootbag (Armory Link = http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/y ... bag/simple) This is my Baleroc set currently.
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EDIT: Looking through this weeks Beth'tilac logs revealed similar data with clean, unblocked hits leaking through even with 102.46% cap.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Rhiannon » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:04 pm

As per Marblehead's reply, partially/completely absorbed hits count as hits, regardless of whether they're blocks or not. So for example in your first table you have (39-35) = 4 definite unblocked hits, and in the 2nd parse melee breakdown pie chart (3.7-3.2%) of your hits are definite unblocked hits. That WoL tries to put absorbs and hits on the same pie chart leads me to think they're double counting those hits, which they really should correct (and the whole thing is somewhat misleading to start with, hence my first post thinking I was getting 7% hits or something).

To find the genuine unblocked hits use the expression editor to search for the expression (targetname="Slootbag" and fulltype=101 and blocked=0) - there are still some for sure in the tables you linked (as # of absorbs isn't equal to # of hits), but not quite as many as you think. Please double check your beth logs if you could to see whether those are genuine unblocked hits or just absorbs, because as of now I'm only seeing the issue on Baleroc, and having confirmation from other bosses would be very useful.
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Re: Nerfed block chance on Baleroc encounter?

Postby Arveinruz » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:21 am

Long time reader - first time poster...
(This forum was what inspired me to start a Tankadin - been hooked on tanking ever since hitting 70 & stepping into Utgarde Keep in March '09 - thank you all very much & keep up the good work :D )

If it's any help... here are my Logs from our kill last week.
Unfortunately, I can't offer this weeks logs because somewhere along the evening I switched a mastery trinket for a stamina trinket after being oneshottet a few times by inferno blade - my meager 170k weren't scaling fast enough :roll:

2 Unblocked Hits

The second hit was after a resurrect so I was missing the food-buff, but the first seems to be a hit without a cause:

First Hit
[21:05:41.155] Arveinruz gains Schlachtruf from Meloo
[21:06:20.177] Arveinruz's Schlachtruf is refreshed by Meloo
[21:06:44.343] Baloroc hits Arveinruz 190708
[21:06:55.210] Arveinruz's Schlachtruf is refreshed by Meloo
[21:07:12.278] Meloo's Schlachtruf fades from Arveinruz
[21:07:12.365] Baloroc Infernostoß Arveinruz 137954 (O: 79282, B: 97599, R: 87454)

I am block-capped with normal Flask & Feast + Motw/Kings + Battle Shout, I'm logged out in the according gearset right now:
Arsenal
or you can put my Sheet into Rawr:
Arveinruz-Rawr
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