[10] Sinestra

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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby fafhrd » Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:48 am

Are you guys still 2 healing it even after the spriest dispell nerf?

We've put 2 nights into it so far 3 healing, and can get to p3 fairly reliably (still an unpleasant number of orb screwups), but keeping people alive in P3 seems to be brutal.

We push through p1 before the 2nd Wrack with heroism on the pull and with the discpriest helping a bit on dps. P2 DPS seems fine, everything dies with plenty of time to spare. Have yet to have the raid survive long enough to run out of the buff in p3, so not sure if we'll have to switch to saving heroism for p3 - this would be rough since as is we sometimes very barely beat the Wrack timer to pushing into p2 if our Arcane Mage gets too many orbs on him in p1. Best attempt so far was around 30% with a couple of deaths late in p3, which seems insufficient. Going to switch to having the spriest solo the whelps while everyone else just nukes the boss. I believe we're currently spawning 2 packs of whelps in p3, killing them, ressing them and moving them to the boss and kill them again, then switching tanks and repeating. No pally to bubble off spit, so we're hoping we can kill the boss before a 3rd fresh set of whelps kills us.

Healing looks kind of uneven with a holy pally doing a lot more heals than the resto shaman and disc priest, although the discpriest is dispelling and the holy pally appears to have been inexplicably heal-bombing the NPC, so maybe we can fix that tonight ...

It feels like we're really missing something, since watching other peoples videos our raid HP seems to be in much worse shape than theirs. Initially our HPally was insisting on using Conc Aura instead of fire because whelps were beating on him, we're just going to switch to Fire aura anyway, since the Flame Breath is by far the largest source of raid damage for the night.

edit: 7% and 14% wipes last night, gnn. Need to deal better with the time when orbs, flame breath and whelp AoE all coincide.
Last edited by fafhrd on Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby cendrabdf » Tue Jun 07, 2011 2:55 pm

We've just put a full night into it 3-healing. With a lust in Phase 1 and all CDs, we're *barely* making it to P2 without a second wrack. And that's if everything goes smoothly. We're able to kill eggs in a single egg phase, but haven't been able to reliably see much of P3 yet.

We decided to try 3-healing first since we don't have a Spriest in raid to help with mass dispels, but the DPS timing feels really tight for us already. We want to try 2-healing tonight with our Disc Priest and Druid, having our Resto Sham go Ele. Those of you two healing, do you rely on a shadow priest for wrack assist? Any suggestions for healer comp makeup?
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby BennyHill » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:09 pm

Yes, we do two heal it. One of our healers is a disc priest. Our resto shammy is primarily on dispelling until it gets on 6+ people.

You have to heal Calen. If he goes below 30% or so, he dies and Sinestra wipes the raid.

For healing comps, I know that disc is much more powerful than holy since you can stack divine aegis on everyone. We've completed with with disc priest + holy pally and disc priest + resto shammy. Don't know about druids. Look on World of Logs to see what other comps people have run.

If you are three healing it, you might try saving your heroism for the very end after the buff falls off. Let two sets of wrack come out during P1. Though, if you're having trouble keeping people alive in P3, your healers might just not be pulling their weight. Spam more, and don't stop spamming. Make sure you use a raid CD for the third breath. Wrack will be on a lot of people then.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby BennyHill » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:09 pm

Sorry, forgot to mention we don't use a spriest in our comp. Not lucky enough to have one who raids consistently.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby fafhrd » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:33 pm

Welp, we managed to sneak in a kill the 2nd attempt we stopped using heroism in P1. Not quite sure how but even though everyone's p1 DPS was lower we pushed through it about as fast before the 2nd Wrack went out. Having it for P3 after the buff fades made keeping everyone alive much easier.

The combinations of people who get orbs in various phases really sucks :/ Arcane mage and DK getting it couple of times in P1 makes it hard to push p1 in time, aoe'er and backup aoe'er in p3 both getting it really sucks on killing whelps in time, healers getting it in p3 with wracks on everyone as a breath comes up really sucks, etc etc. Can't imagine this being harder on 25.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby timoseewho » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:01 am

I was beginning to lose hope in 2-healing without a shadow Priest, but I guess it's still doable? We're trying it with 2 healers (Priest/Paladin) and consistently wipe around the 66% mark in P3 usually from an overwhelm in damage. What made it easier for groups to 2-heal it without a shadow Priest prior to the batch of Sinestra nerfs? Or was it always only easier if you had a shadow Priest?
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby PsiVen » Thu Jun 16, 2011 8:01 am

Shadow priests and Ret paladins used to be able to dispel Wrack, I believe. The only Sinestra change is that they can't anymore, but shadow priests can still Mass Dispel it.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby fafhrd » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:02 am

We haven't gone back to repeat a kill thanks to needing to kill Chogal on normal to finish achievements, but our kill was apparently flawed by dispelling too much - we had 3 heals (priest, pally, shaman) and a shadowpriest, but only had the spriest help on dispells when she really had to, since DPS was an issue. So over the course of a 7:45 kill, we had a total of 136 dispells, with the holy/disc priest getting 97% of those. This is on 10 man.

Meanwhile, looking at the highest ranked kill on 10 man with a similar duration (7:25), they only do 31 dispells the whole fight, also with 3 healers.

So if we go back, we're probably going to look into dispelling wrack a whole LOT less than we have been, which might make keeping people alive easier - our dispelling priest was much lower on heals than the other 2 healers, unlike the other guild.

Perhaps you're having similar wasted time on dispells?
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby BennyHill » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:34 am

When Wrack is on 6+ people and a breath is coming, it's essential that you use a raid CD. Also, I wear double resist trinkets (Mirror + heroic Sindy 25) for that fight so I have a CD for every single breath.

As for dispells, it's easiest to look at our logs. First Kill. Second kill.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby Arianne » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:33 pm

One thing that we do in 25 (which should still work in 10) is to make the first wrack last as long as possible before you dispel it. That means that our Disc priest (who is our primary dispeller) uses PS on the person who gets the first wrack after ~10s and then dispels it as PS is going to wear off. If the first person who gets it also has their own CD then it can also prolong it, which means fewer wracks over the course of the fight.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby Bellante » Tue Jun 28, 2011 4:59 am

BennyHill wrote:When Wrack is on 6+ people and a breath is coming, it's essential that you use a raid CD. Also, I wear double resist trinkets (Mirror + heroic Sindy 25) for that fight so I have a CD for every single breath.

As for dispells, it's easiest to look at our logs. First Kill. Second kill.


This entire discussion of how many dispels, and particularly the link to those 2 logs, got us our kill last night, just in time for Firelands. Before that, we would have 25 (!) dispels on a 15% wipe, probably meaning we would end up with the typical 30-40 dispels in total for a kill.

Dispelling earlier on the later waves of a Wrack meant it became a lot safer, and we no longer had the "oh shit, wrack target x died after dispel because of breath", which coincidentally is also how it's handled in 25 man, which is what Wrack was designed for anyway. It is definitely what I would recommend people to do.

Link to log: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-eqgmq ... 263&e=9667
Number of dispels: 95.

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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby 2Cute2BeStr8 » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:33 am

Since we're clearing FL so fast now we are going to back and work on Heroic Cho'gall and then this so I'll make a post under H-Cho'gal too. Our mage would would cry if he got Shard of Woe, plus some other great items come from her and it would be fun. Ill bold questions since I make to many walls of text.

Our comp is:

Double Prot Paladin for tanks

I want to two heal with: Disc priest and Resto Druid

DPS Comp : ( lets just say I hate melee)

Spriest
Arc Mage
Ele Shaman ( he is normally resto but does good damage)
Hunter
Frost DK
Warlock ( Would it be better to have him go desto for nether protection)

the mechanics of this fight do not seem to difficult at all and it seems like 10 man would be much more manageable. I just basically want to clear things up

-Hopefully wrack goes on spriest/destro lock? Double prot paladin hand of sacrifice. Pain with disc priest

- Tank Whelps till phase 2 and kill whelps as that phase starts kill them again. At this time would we have the tank that was on sinestra pick up the spitecallers that way my stacks of twilight spit would fall off? Sinestra I believe doesn't need a tank in P2? Just use druid hibernate/hungering cold/scattershot to interupt unleash essence?

Ideally kill eggs in one phase

Then with phase 3 its just all the same mechanics but with that uber buff?

Ideally with the change to crit healing ( our uber raid CD's) and our gear she should go down before the buff even wears off if we do everything correctly.

Glyph of holy wrath would be bad for this since it would stun that dragon right? Or is it good for the whelps? Is it generally just easier to kill the whelps twice and the second time they dont respawn?
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby Arianne » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:16 am

Glyph of Holy Wrath is bad for this fight because of stunning the Spitecallers. I don't remember that it actually works on the whelps either.

The tank who is whelp tanking phase 1 either has to tank spitecallers or go DPS an egg. The dragons that come down in phase 2 do a shadowflame breath that will kill you before the twilight spit stacks wear off and you want to save DS until phase 3 to reset the stacks. So your Sinestra tank has to pick up the dragon.

That's a pretty hard comp to do the spitecallers with. Check out the other Sinestra thread for comments on hibernate IIRC.

You really only need to delay wrack by one time. The boss tank may be able to HoS them while blowing a CD of their own, but the whelp tank will probably be busy (unless they do the first HoS maybe). DKs are also good for Wrack because they have AMS/IBF. It's mostly your hunter who will be boned by wrack.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:10 pm

Whelps cannot be stunned and HW glyph will get you killed by the Spitecaller(s).

I'm not sure what you'd do with Spitecallers in that comp, honestly. You might be best off interrupting them (the whelp tank must NOT be in range if you trigger Indomitable, it will one-shot him), and dispelling Indomitable with Tranq Shot. I think you can dispel it as an Enrage effect.
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Re: [10] Sinestra

Postby Kitmajere » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:39 am

Your interrupt comp is very similar to ours, which we handled completely without issue.
With our dps, spitecallers only got off two Unleashes per. Since HC has a cast time now, you'll need to rely on Spriest fear and Scattershot. We also tried using a resto druid spamming hibernate- which worked assuming you had a point in balance of power, but was a bit iffy since spam casting it can every once in a while line up with the Unleash cast so that it gets off (it might be worth trying though). Oh, shammy knockback should work too? [Wrt the post above, you could interrupt it with a HW or HoJ stun and then tranq it (tranq does work), but I don't really see why].
Two healing is going to be fun with a druid + priest. Most two healed kills were done with a holy pally + something else, just so 1 healer could keep up tanks alone and the other focus raid almost entirely. We did pally + disc priest, but had our spriest handle all dispels after the first two of each wrack with mass dispel in P3. Tbh, with the dps up you should have from FL, don't rule out 3 healing.
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