[Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:30 am

Hi, first of all, i'm a healadin (8/13 HM)
I've just seen the Ghostcrawler's topics about the reasons they do some changes on healadin. Bliz is going totally crazy with us.

I remember before cataclysm, long and long discussions about what role can fullfill each healer class. Bliz said they didnt want paladin to be tankheal and drood to be raidheal. They wanted everybody to be able to do anything.
8 month later there is still nothing done about this

I think they are tweaking paladin for R25 content without thinking about R10.
They reduce HR cooldown : nice, but do they see this spell is obsolete on many fights for R10 because its hard to have enought target to make it effective ?
Quite same for LoD : they buff WoG, enought to make some people in R25 to use it. But do they think about R10 ? LoD will be less effective than WoG in 99% of time after this change. So they just cut off the use of this spell.

The changes about our mana are bad. Yeah paladin are spamming DL in heroic encounter, but it's not because they have too much mana.It's because there are spikky dammage and we have no tools to heal this in a other way.There is no more "triage" like they spoke about before cataclysm.

So i'm really disappointed with all the changes, maybe some people are happy but i really dont want to be a spamming HLbot again. But as our raidheal are broken for R10 (especially with the crit buff wich makes Hots awesome)...
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Hrobertgar » Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:33 am

The massive mana nerf coming has me very worried about heroics after the patch. I mean 30% base mana to 35% thats like 18%, which is on top of the 10% from patch 4.0.3

I remember my first heroic dungeon that first weekend when we were all ~329 gear I got into H-DM and we were on the boat at the werewolf boss. I had 68k mana and I would go oom everytime that he was out and had to spam DivPlea and melee adds for mana in the in-between phases. How a starting pally would hope to cope with a 18% nerf on top of a 10% nerf is beyond me. I mean yes, they can go get gear from AH for better gear level, but I have doubts whether a 329 pally could confidently heal a 329 group thru reg heroics after this nerf.

For H-10 T11 raiding, I am very worried as the fights tend to be fairly mana intensive as is, and some of them have mechanics that limit melee for SoI. Causing me to go oom 18% faster and not giving me an extra pot or 1min divPlea to make up for it is cruel. And if blizz does not like DL spam, then what do they expect when many things hit like trucks. I mean HL is not going to keep a tank up facing even 1 H-Halfus drake.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:11 am

Well, i was looking on EJ and it's the same type of comments. They all posts that paladin is still balanced in mana for a 10M raid, and the nerf is because in 25 you see a lot of video with paladin spamming without any problem (even Chogath HM etc..)
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:13 am

I agree, Ezelyn. As a strict 10M raider, I specced out of Light of Dawn about 6 weeks ago and have not missed it in the least. There is ALWAYS a single person target to throw my WoG on to do good effect when at 3x Holy Power....the WoG buff (along with the associated WoG-related talents where LoD has not "extra" effect) is just going to more seal the deal that WoG is a much better use of my Holy Power than LoD is.

And Holy Radiance is outstanding on some encounters and pure drek on others. Magmaw? Sure, we use a stack the raid in melee range strat and it is great for Lava Spew. ODS? Flame guy is up, good healing there. Chim and Feud. Atra is a stack up strat for us. Mal and the red phase flame jet. BH....Cho'gall and Shadow Orders...V&T upon Blackout cleansing...Conclave and on the nature platform when adds are up...

However, I find I don't use it much on Halfus or TAC. Just not enough raiders group up to make those fights worth it. Perhaps Heoic mode is different.

There are times and places where Holy Radiance is a very useful tool in just about every fight in Tier-11. I was a VERY sad panda when it was first introduced and I learned it was player-based and not "throwable" like Circle of Healing or Wild Growth or Healing Rain.

However, Blizzard appeared to be pretty careful and make sure Tier-11 encounters were designed to ensure that it was pretty useful. I hope Tier-12 does the same.
=======================================================================
For Hrobertgar. I agree that the mana nerf has me concerned. While right now in regular modes I can, if the raid plays well, end most fights with lots and lots of mana left over, it has more to do that I have trained myself to Holy Shock on CD, Judge on CD, use Arcane Torrent and my Core of Ripeness on CD and cast Holy Light as much as possible now that we overgear the content just a bit. The nerf will probably not effect me greatly since I am a regular mode raider (we are just not consistant or good enough to challenge many hard modes) but I agree than new 85s with new 85s in Heroic could be brutal.
=======================================================================
As for me, I, overall, like the changes 4.2 is bringing quite a bit.

- Sure, I have argued long and hard about Mastery and its lack of viability with Healadins...and then Blizzard changed how our Mastery will work. I still don't love it but my campaign against it has ended. I will still reforge all my Mastery and Crit towards Spirit or Haste...but I will no longer look at Mastery as being completely useless to me.

- The 100% Beacon Holy Light heal is brilliant. If the damage intake on the tank can support it, it allows me to continue to dump HS and WoG where needed, heal raid with Holy Light and then bomb the tank with Divine Light as needed. It will feel a whole lot more like a triage model assuming that Blizzard does not have to go back to the "tanks die in 2 GCD" mode like ICC was.

- 200% Critical Heals. No down side there. Will make me want Crit gear that much more.

- 30% buff to Word of Glory healing. Yes, please. More of the same, Sir.

- Tier-12 Itemization. The bonuses are desirable and none of the gear has Mastery on it. What is not to love about that?

- A FRICKING INTELLECT AXE! ME WANT! I don't care that it has Mastery on it. I want to smash faces with axes!

Overall, I am looking forward to Tier-12. I am a bit sad that there is only one instance...I liked the freedom to chose between working in BoT or BWD or TotFW with BH thrown in as an appetizer. Going back to the same instance every week for the next 5 monthes is going to get a little old but perhaps if my Pally gets geared quick enough I can get my Priest in there on our regular raids.

Anyway, I am looking foward to most of the Pally changes in 4.2.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Flex » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:38 am

Early in Cata's release they buffed pretty much every healing class' mana regen abilities, the big one for Paladins was the mana return on Judging Insight.

All of these current changes to mana cost are to fix that since healers with gear start to ignore aspects Blizzard doesn't want ignored.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:26 am

Flex wrote:Early in Cata's release they buffed pretty much every healing class' mana regen abilities, the big one for Paladins was the mana return on Judging Insight.

All of these current changes to mana cost are to fix that since healers with gear start to ignore aspects Blizzard doesn't want ignored.

this decision doesnt affect all classes in the same way.
They are nerfing mana regen from drood chaman etc...
but on paladin, it's not their regen, it's their mana cost.
I think it's a bad solution.

they should nerf our mana regen like the others (and maybe give us less GCD spend on judgement..)

i can see the patch like this :
- if you are paladin, and you play in fights like Magmaw, Maloriak etc... (with free regen phase) you will still have no mana problem unlike all the other classes
but in the other case, if there are fights you cant push any safe DivinePlea : you will have awesome problem where others don't

We definitively regen too much when we are not casting divine light... when i see on maloriak my manabar before a green phase i can easily be at 90 if we are coming from a blue phase, and at 40 if there was a red juste before that. My mana gestion is not about the whole mana i use in a fight, but only in the last minute...
i don't like disparity like that. If there is a burst heal during 1min00 i can't heal as much as a drood, but if it's 30sec burst - 15sec safe - 30sec burst we are so overpowered...

this unbalance will be increased after 4.2
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Levantine » Mon Jun 20, 2011 6:37 am

Paladin mana is a joke. If you don't think you can use all your tools (I'm lookin at you, Plea) you're just not trying hard enough. I honestly don't know what to say to you.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:47 am

Levantine wrote:Paladin mana is a joke. If you don't think you can use all your tools (I'm lookin at you, Plea) you're just not trying hard enough. I honestly don't know what to say to you.

You really should try R10 on PTR and compare paladin to other classes after 4.2 nerf on DL (only 17% increased :D ).
but maybe it wasn't clear that i was talking on the 4.2 mana nerf paladin compared to drood/priest

in fact, even in 4.1 paladin's regen mana is quite equal to drood, one example nefarian HM :
4 divine plea
Seal of Insight 99306 mana
Divine Plea 87787 mana
Arcane Torrent 28880 mana
Glyph of Divinity 23537 mana
Restore Mana 9316 mana

Drood, same combatlog
Revitalize 91196 mana
Innervate 81666 mana
Replenishment 61507 mana
Restore Mana 14436 mana
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Mon Jun 20, 2011 8:31 am

Ezelyn wrote:
Levantine wrote:Paladin mana is a joke. If you don't think you can use all your tools (I'm lookin at you, Plea) you're just not trying hard enough. I honestly don't know what to say to you.

You really should try R10 on PTR and compare paladin to other classes after 4.2 nerf on DL (only 17% increased :D ).
but maybe it wasn't clear that i was talking on the 4.2 mana nerf paladin compared to drood/priest

in fact, even in 4.1 paladin's regen mana is quite equal to drood, one example nefarian HM :
4 divine plea
Seal of Insight 99306 mana
Divine Plea 87787 mana
Arcane Torrent 28880 mana
Glyph of Divinity 23537 mana
Restore Mana 9316 mana

Drood, same combatlog
Revitalize 91196 mana
Innervate 81666 mana
Replenishment 61507 mana
Restore Mana 14436 mana


Was this 25 or 10 man? Where is the Replenishment for the Pally? Are you saying that the Pally never got a Replenishment tick?

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 20, 2011 10:25 am

IIRC Innervate will take a hit in 4.2.?
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Mon Jun 20, 2011 12:00 pm

Dantriges wrote:IIRC Innervate will take a hit in 4.2.?


Only if the Druid uses his Innervate on someone else. If he/she uses it on themself, it will return what it is in 4.1 now, I believe.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:29 am

sherck wrote:Was this 25 or 10 man? Where is the Replenishment for the Pally? Are you saying that the Pally never got a Replenishment tick?
Cheers,


Hi,
my bad, i wanted to cut off "racial regen" and i've cut Replenishment. That was (cant link again i'm at work) pretty the same (a little more because their paladin got a little more intel).
The purpose of the link was to say :
Insight+divine plea quite equal to Revitalize+innervate if you are using the same trinket (if one of them is using intel trinket, the manapool is not so close)
And our regen is really a hell compared to drood (GCD spend on judgement, heal/2 during plea)

Maybe can we count on "Glyph of Divinity" but it's a gameplay choice since a lot of healadin (especially on nefarian crackle) are using LoD, DivPlea and Divine Prot as Major Glyph.

For your other question it's from 10man, one of the top HPS drood in worldoflog (and their healadin in the same fight). (you can take another log to compare with, regen is pretty the same and i suspect it's not a good example because in P2 you can melee a lot)


By the way i think the manacost on DL will be a 10man probablematic that's why i only link 10man. You actually can't afford spamming DL on 10man. In 25man they will be able to adapt (using more holylight on raidmember with beacon on tank).

I forgot to speak about bad geared healadin with a low regen due to low manapool. They will have hard time to use 35%manabase DL on their tank.
In conclusion, i think this nerf isnt done like it should be
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Ezelyn » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:05 am

Hi, maybe some of you did remember a question about the shield stacking from 2 holypally on the same target.
After testing, it does stack.
Each paladin can stack his own illuminated shield on the same tank resulting in incredible shields (about 40k * x)

There is no problem to use 2 holypally in a 10man raid.
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