All Things Mr. Robot!

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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Thanistor » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:37 pm

Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.
I think he said bump stamina up by one if you want it to favor stamina more for hard modes.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby halabar » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:53 pm

I use that site for other classes as well.

What you have to remember is that when looking at individual gear comparisons, some stats (like hit for dps classes) can be weighted too heavily.

But it does work as a very nice reference to at least get you in the ballpark.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:02 pm

Thanistor wrote:Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.


I can't seem to find any posts from Theck that deal with mitigation (only the threat thread), but I thought that mastery was point for point better than dodge and parry for reducing incoming damage?
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:51 pm

Arees wrote:
Thanistor wrote:Those are actually the Theck-approved values. He's one of their contributors.

Oh, I believe the reasoning is that diminishing returns on dodge and parry are taken into account by the program.


I can't seem to find any posts from Theck that deal with mitigation (only the threat thread), but I thought that mastery was point for point better than dodge and parry for reducing incoming damage?


Their weightings are chosen for overall damage reduction, and are calculated directly from the equations in the Derivations thread.

Dodge and parry are better than mastery for reducing damage before diminishing returns comes in, which is why their weightings have them at the top. Their program calculates the diminishing returns on dodge and parry for you, so it properly devalues them as you get more. That's why, for example, it's suggesting mastery gems rather than dodge gems.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:29 pm

Ok... I see what it's doing now I suppose. My next question, which probably belongs in the gearing sections, but since I've already got this thread started I'll ask it here. Askmrrobot is saying to gem straight mastery in yellow slots and stam/mastery in blue. I've been doing the exact opposite and I gem stam in blue and stam/mastery in yellow (and stam/parry in red if the bonus is good). It also says to replace my 40 stam wrist enchant with 50 dodge rating. Is that a smart way to gem? I can't check your armory theck... you logged out in ret gear :(

I've been away from the game since January and am just now coming back. I'm trying to get some of the ZA/ZG gear and get caught up with my guild. We've only just fully cleared all 12 bosses and are just starting on heroic mode early bosses.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:49 am

It's tough to say; I'm of the opinion that Stamina comes into its own on the heroic bosses, but not everyone shares that opinion. As a tank, trying to "catch up" probably means you're a little undergeared and vulnerable to burst, so I'd lean towards a stam-heavy itemization based on that as well. It will also depend on your healers - if they outgear you that much and play well, then they shouldn't have trouble running OOM either way, so stam-heavy is probably safer. But the only way to know for sure is to try it and see what your death logs look like.

Mr. Robot's defaults are pretty tightly tuned. If you bump the Stamina weighting up by one point (66->67), it should start suggesting the gemming strategy you're using (stam in blue, stam/parry in red, stam/mast in yellow).
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:21 am

Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:14 am

Thanks theck. I wish at the bottom of the optimized gems/enchants it told me net gain and loss of changing all that would be. Like you get -7,503hp but get +6% block or something like that. I think though I'm going to stick with the gemming strategy I'm using now and see how that works heading into Firelands since that's just right around the corner.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:58 am

yappo wrote:Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.

That could have something to do with the fact that it doesn't weight resistance, and it probably treats the Darkmoon Card on-use like some average amount of stamina. Trinkets are also one of Mr. Robot's weak points, I'm not sure it does much in the way of modeling on-use on proc abilities. You're probably better off ignoring its trinket suggestions. I've yet to find a significant error with it's gemming/enchanting/reforging algorithms though, so it's an excellent tool for optimizing the gear set you're wearing.

Arees wrote:Thanks theck. I wish at the bottom of the optimized gems/enchants it told me net gain and loss of changing all that would be. Like you get -7,503hp but get +6% block or something like that. I think though I'm going to stick with the gemming strategy I'm using now and see how that works heading into Firelands since that's just right around the corner.

It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby yappo » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:35 am

theckhd wrote:
yappo wrote:Well, if the robot tells me to upgrade my Mirror to the darkmoon card, then the robot needs some major oiling.

That could have something to do with the fact that it doesn't weight resistance, and it probably treats the Darkmoon Card on-use like some average amount of stamina. Trinkets are also one of Mr. Robot's weak points, I'm not sure it does much in the way of modeling on-use on proc abilities. You're probably better off ignoring its trinket suggestions. I've yet to find a significant error with it's gemming/enchanting/reforging algorithms though, so it's an excellent tool for optimizing the gear set you're wearing.


It does SOME modeling on the on-use. The agi on-use trink is rated higher than the strength on-use, which is perfectly understandable if you prioritize staying alive. Both those trinkets are rated above the darkmoon card, which also makes sense. It's just the Mirror that pretty much is ranked as a bad trinket (which reason you just explained to me).
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.


Ah thanks, I didn't even see that. So lets see, if I gem the way it wants me to then I gain 2.13 mastery and lose 11.4k hp raid buffed. I lose 0.4% dodge, but gain 0.8% parry so my total avoidance will go up by 0.4%. It also says I'll lose 701 armor; it thinks I should use the stam/BV meta gem. I thought that the armor meta was better for reducing incoming damage.

I'm not sure how much block chance 2.13 mastery is, but I think it's 2.5% per point of mastery right? So its a gain of 5% block, 0.4% avoidance but a loss of 11.4k hp and 700 armor. I'm not really sure its worth the trade off.

It's definitely an interesting web site. I'm going to use it to optimize my ret gear too, which is largely unenchanted, ungemmed, and unreforged. Does it know to stop suggesting hit/exp when you reach the caps?
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Volitaire » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:48 am

Yes it does know where the caps are and takes them into account.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Digren » Wed Jun 15, 2011 11:37 am

Arees wrote:
theckhd wrote:It does give you that, just click on the "Show Stats" button after optimizing and it will show you how much of each stat you've gained or lost.


Ah thanks, I didn't even see that. So lets see, if I gem the way it wants me to then I gain 2.13 mastery and lose 11.4k hp raid buffed. I lose 0.4% dodge, but gain 0.8% parry so my total avoidance will go up by 0.4%. It also says I'll lose 701 armor; it thinks I should use the stam/BV meta gem. I thought that the armor meta was better for reducing incoming damage.

I'm not sure how much block chance 2.13 mastery is, but I think it's 2.5% per point of mastery right? So its a gain of 5% block, 0.4% avoidance but a loss of 11.4k hp and 700 armor. I'm not really sure its worth the trade off.

It's definitely an interesting web site. I'm going to use it to optimize my ret gear too, which is largely unenchanted, ungemmed, and unreforged. Does it know to stop suggesting hit/exp when you reach the caps?

The block value meta is better once you have at least 85% or so combat table coverage. The addition of about 5.4% ctc with the other changes it suggests likely puts you over that threshold, if you aren't already.

If you want to maximize combat table coverage, then its suggestions sound correct. If you don't like it's suggestions and instead want a health pad (which you may or may not actually need), then tweak it's stamina/mastery ratio by a point (from 0.67 sta : mastery to 0.66 sta : mastery) and it should instead suggest a stamina-heavy strategy. Then you'll get what you want.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby warden » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:41 pm

The ret stat weights are close, but not perfect; use with caution. The tool itself, given the correct stat weights, is perfect. I STRONGLY recommend, if you want to use this to optimize your dps, use simcraft to determine your exact stat weights, plug in those, and optimize. It is a bit more work, but much more accurate. I use it for my reforging as ret, but I tweak the stat weights by hand first.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Arees » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:50 pm

Digren wrote:The block value meta is better once you have at least 85% or so combat table coverage. The addition of about 5.4% ctc with the other changes it suggests likely puts you over that threshold, if you aren't already.


Ok, I didn't realize that. Thanks for the info. This brings up a question though... I remember the developers talking before cataclysm hit about each tier the bosses will need more hit/exp to cap than previous tiers. I think it was also said that bosses might get expertise. I haven't read anything about this being the case on the PTR though. If the bosses get exp that would decrease our ctc.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:44 pm

I recall seeing a blue post on that basically saying it fell into the "too hard" basket. We may still se it later.
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Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Blackbeared » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:55 am

Ok I have to ask this. What stats should I input for warrior tanks. I know site says Maintankadin but I can't find a better site for warriors then this one.

If you do, link me or PM me.

But maybe someone here can also help me further.
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Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby RedAces » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:39 am

try tankspot.com
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Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Blackbeared » Thu Jun 16, 2011 5:46 am

RedAces wrote:try tankspot.com


I do I use multiple websites. But I can't use this thingy for Warriors? If someone can tell me those stats I need to input of weight, like mastery and/or stamina and such...
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Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby lythac » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:09 am

Blackbeared wrote:
RedAces wrote:try tankspot.com


I do I use multiple websites. But I can't use this thingy for Warriors? If someone can tell me those stats I need to input of weight, like mastery and/or stamina and such...


You can use it for warriors, and they have their own Stat Weights.

They seem to look OK when comparing between Paladins and Warriors.

Parry is slighyly higher than Dodge due to Hold the Line.
Warrior Mastery is lower than Paladin (not as good for you?). Doesn't matter anyway too much the optimiser says to gem for it anyway.

The only thing you need to change is the weighting of Stamina. If you set it to 50 it will suggest sta gemming/enchating, if set to 49 Avoidance/Mastery.
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Re: Mr. Robot's Gear Optimizer

Postby Blackbeared » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:15 am

lythac wrote:You can use it for warriors, and they have their own Stat Weights.

They seem to look OK when comparing between Paladins and Warriors.

Parry is slighyly higher than Dodge due to Hold the Line.
Warrior Mastery is lower than Paladin (not as good for you?). Doesn't matter anyway too much the optimiser says to gem for it anyway.

The only thing you need to change is the weighting of Stamina. If you set it to 50 it will suggest sta gemming/enchating, if set to 49 Avoidance/Mastery.


Ok well for Warriors mastery is quite the thing, cause it increases chance to block for normal attacks en critical blocks.

But do I need to change the Stat Weights by much if so, any good opinions on what to chance for the best :), I know this is not the best place to ask but Tankspot is down I think, and well this site helped me so far with Gear even.
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Re: askmrrobot

Postby Digren » Thu Jun 16, 2011 1:01 pm

I haven't seen anything about it, which is why I keep bringing it up in the 4.2 PTR discussion whenever anyone says that we'll "block cap almost immediately in 4.2".

If there's a blue post about it I'd love a link.
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Re: All Things Mr. Robot!

Postby Yellowfive » Fri Jun 17, 2011 10:41 am

Hey all -- I am the main engineer over at askmrrobot.com.

You all are correct that we don't put a weight on the resistance effect of the Mirror, thus you have to manually lock that trinket in as BiS, and basically ignore the ranking of it. It is a unique proc that would be quite difficult to rank as the other trinkets are ranked.

A few updates ago, we made significant improvements to the way that we rank and model tanking trinkets. Firstly, we built a proc simulator to get accurate average up-times for trinket procs and use effects. Then, we (finally!) implemented code to properly apply diminishing returns to tanking procs, which give large chunks of avoidance all at once.

We are in the process of updating everything for 4.2. One change that we will be implementing at this time is some extra logic around the avoidance cap, which apparently will be much easier to reach... if there is no scaling introduced as blizzard hinted at before cataclysm. Up until now we have sort of ignored it because you can just barely reach it in current gear. We can't get away with being lazy anymore though ;)

If anyone has any feedback or a tanking "wish list" for changes/improvements to askmrrobot.com for 4.2, now is the time to tell us!
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Re: All Things Mr. Robot!

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:09 pm

Yellow,

For the 4.2 updates you'll have to account for the changes to Holy Shield, which will alter the mastery/dodge/parry relationships once again. Now that the PTR has settle down and we're not likely to see any more changes, I'll be updating the Derivations thread with the updated formulas, but I probably won't get to it until this weekend. I'll drop you a line once it's done though.

If you need anything else from me, just holler. I'll try and check the mrrobot forums every day or so until the patch as well.
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Re: All Things Mr. Robot!

Postby Yellowfive » Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:12 pm

Theck -- I checked out your updated derivation thread, very helpful as always!

So I was working on the holy shield version of "20% increased block value for 10 sec, 30 sec CD", but I notice that the latest talent calculator on wowhead shows "10% increased block value for 10 sec, 20 sec CD".

Does anyone know which it will be when the patch goes live?


I have updated the thread that describes how Mr. Robot's weights are created based on the calculations from maintankadin -- I'll update it with the final logic depending on what they actually do with holy shield.

http://forums.askmrrobot.com/index.php? ... 4#msg14224


I also have the total avoidance cap code working, since it's pretty easy to get capped in tier 12 gear. So far it seems decent... need to test it and get some more feedback though.
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