Who remembers SWP very well?

[Darielle]

And adding 15% to the damage of the five warlocks...

More than that. 15% straight damage, but also reducing the dps loss of Life Tapping.

[knaughty]

Forgot that bit.

Anyway, my vague recollection is that with a properly stacked raid (five warlocks) that the highest rDPS improvement you could make was adding a SP.

At level 60, they could literally cast SWP:R1 5 times to stack misery, then recast it every 20 seconds or so to keep the debuff up and they were a net gain in rDPS even if they did ~1DPS personally.

[Worldie]

A Ret Paladin in this fight would have brought:
- 2% more damage to his group
- 3% more crit to the raid
- Judgement of Wisdom
- One more bless

The benefits of having a Ret pala in melee group were quite high. And Judgement of wisdom was a very high increase in DPS as far as i remember for all mana users, I remember that sometimes I got asked to use JoW rather than JoCr when tanking, not sure if that was a wise choice or not, but the casters definitively loved JoW.

[Brekkie]

Crusader Strike also refreshed all Judgements on the target.

This allowed your Holy Paladins to fire and forget a single judgement on the boss right on the pull, allowing you to have all three relevant judgements (crusader, light, and wisdom) on the boss with 100% uptime.

You also always put the ret paladin in the melee group unless you had an overflow of glaive rogues because the difference between Ret-with-windfury-totem and ret-without-windfury-totem was massive, and it was better rDPS to make one of the worse performing pures suck it up in the step-child group and give the ret windfury.

@Worldie
I have no idea why you would ever stack a group like that. That was a criminal waste of hunters. Tanks should have never needed any kind of damage increasing party synergy unless they were going for some kind of TPS parse. Certainly not to avoid threat capping your DPS. Sounds like a "play better" issue in the case of your prot warrior. And 40/21 wasn't really a viable spec for progression either, and shouldn't have been necessary except for e-peen parses, in which case you'd just have a ret paladin in your group and spec normally anyway in order to have Avengers Shield as an extra filler. No disrespect intended.

[knaughty]

And 40/21 wasn't really a viable spec for progression either,

Now you've done it...

Takes cover...

[Worldie]

@Worldie
I have no idea why you would ever stack a group like that. That was a criminal waste of hunters. Tanks should have never needed any kind of damage increasing party synergy unless they were going for some kind of TPS parse. Certainly not to avoid threat capping your DPS. Sounds like a "play better" issue in the case of your prot warrior. And 40/21 wasn't really a viable spec for progression either, and shouldn't have been necessary except for e-peen parses, in which case you'd just have a ret paladin in your group and spec normally anyway in order to have Avengers Shield as an extra filler. No disrespect intended.

My guild back then was in no way close to a bleeding edge guild, so our setup was far from optimal.
Here's a typical kill from my guild (emphasis on my super awesome raid frames), you can see our setup, none of the casters would have dared to lose the SP. I'd swap with the DPS war if it was me tanking.

many mages and rogues, handle it Only one had dual glaive tho, other two had offhand glaive only.

[fafhrd]

You also always put the ret paladin in the melee group unless you had an overflow of glaive rogues because the difference between Ret-with-windfury-totem and ret-without-windfury-totem was massive, and it was better rDPS to make one of the worse performing pures suck it up in the step-child group and give the ret windfury.

Yeah that was our reasoning since we only had one enhance shaman - put it in the group with 2 rogues, warrior and ret, put the feral in the group with the 3 hunters and resto shaman. Feral and hunters would have much rather got the enhance, and hunters would much rather have got the enhance than the feral or resto, but this worked decently. Ideally our SV hunter would have gone in the tank group or something (which also had a resto for windfury + SoE) but since we didn't have a 3rd BM hunter or a 2nd dps warrior or something and he was a LW while many in the raid weren't, it was better to keep him with the other hunters. I think he got swapped out for the 2nd/3rd heroism though in favour of the rogues.

As for JoW, yeah mages and locks liked it, but more importantly there was little point bringing hunters without JoW - our DPS was not really competitive with stacked rogues/locks if we used our own mana regen tools, since having JoW mostly meant we never ran out of mana (which has been the case all the way from MC through ICC, but thankfully the dependance on pallies was cut with Cataclysm).

[Worldie]

Well in guild that couldn't afford a properly geared Ret or Prot for JoW, had Holy palas with autoattack on and JoW.

[fafhrd]

Yeah, I've demanded that on occasion when a ret is dead or not present.

One of the biggest differences about Cata is that I have fewer debuffs to complain about being missing. Before if any of Faerie Fire, 5x Sunders, JoW, CoE, Mangle, Trauma or Windfury failed to be present in a raid where they could be provided, I would notice and point out the failing on vent within about 10 seconds of it going down. I've been known to rage at draenei who were in a group to provide 1% hit to the group but stood in retarded places or moved around constantly, since the 30 yard range on it was very very easy to exceed on just about every fight in Wrath (eventually I gave up and just racechanged to draenei myself).

Nowadays I only get to bitch about 3x Sunder/Faerie Fire, Mangle, CoE, Trauma and Windfury. I can also provide equivalents of the first 4 via pets if I see the group won't have one.

[fafhrd]

Man I make a lot of typos when I don't proofread...

[Brekkie]

I've been known to rage at draenei who were in a group to provide 1% hit to the group but stood in retarded places or moved around constantly, since the 30 yard range on it was very very easy to exceed on just about every fight in Wrath (eventually I gave up and just racechanged to draenei myself).

Brekkie casts Seal of Approval

[fafhrd]

Fafhrd waggles an experienced tail in Brekkie's direction, ribbed for her pleasure.

In other news though, the race change taught me that while various casters will rabidly fight one-another to be in the group with a draenei, pretty much 0% of them will actually bother to be in range of that draenei to actually receive the bonus, even when you tell them exactly where you're going to be so they can. It's like no one tracks their buffs or something while in combat.

[Geaux]

Thanks to everyones great contributions to support my arguement. I have a freaking ton of information to drop in her lap and teach her a lesson >:D I knew the maintankadin community was the right place to reach out to for help, you guys are great and always help a fellow tankadin in need.

Maintankadin, going above and beyond.

[Sabindeus]

[Passionario]

And adding 15% to the damage of the five warlocks...

And being the designated Mass Dispel bitch provider on Gas Nova/Dark Fiends.