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Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

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Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Gebeleizis » Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:46 pm

As this is my first post here I would first like to say a friendly hello to all fellow Tankadins.

I am the main tank of a quite small, casual guild that started raiding 10 mode rarely since about two weeks or so ago. Last night we downed Omnotron and Maloriak, ending up at Chimaeron. We got another tank here as our previous ally guild one d/c-ed mysteriously..

Now this is where our problems started. I was tanking Chimaeron and taking the Breaks while the second tank (paladin) soaked the Double Attacks. Apart from other raid wide issues we had, the big bug was that after I taunted off him I'd lose threat almost immediately after the taunt lock on several occasions. This of course with the other snags led to wiping before the 20% mark. Two, three wipes into it the second tank suggested we switch roles so we did and the same problem occurred to me when taunting the Double Attacks. Two more wipes later a DPS had to leave and we gave it a last shot as 9 man with the second tank in Retribution Spec with Righteous Fury on for the Double Attacks, at his suggestion again. Same thing happened after I taunted off, wiped eventually and called it quits for the night.

Before we logged off I asked him if during the encounter he kept his rotation going while I was taunting and he said yes, to keep up DPS and what not, even pulled my leg a bit while saying so. Now I'm not the most imba / theorycraft player nor striving to become so, I only try to use common sense and basic documentation to improve myself and enjoy the game with my guild. That said, I learned from my very first run of Baradin Hold to always hold my rotation a few seconds after another tank taunts off me because of Vengeance. Other than that my only similar experience was on Slate Halfus. Looking at the encounter this what I thought happened:

First case - I was suffering from Vengeance decay after I was set at 10~20kHP and even more so after he taunted for Doubles, while he was getting instant 10kAp~ after the strike, making it impossible for me to retake aggro while he continued his rotation.

Second case - Here it's a bit odd, since he couldn't of had much Vengeance when I taunted but apparently he had enough? I don't remember if the aggro loss happened at the start, when he would of had more Vengeance or a bit later.

Third case - As DPS spec + Righteous Fury he had more threat than whatever Vengeance I had at the time. I do not know if he changed gear sets as well.

I may be horribly, blatantly wrong but that's just what my short and limited experience tells me that happened. The thing is the second tank had, unlike me, 12/12 with most of the bosses on farm, but his guild has yet to do any heroics yet to my knowledge, apart from maybe Halfus, so if he played like in any raid night with his fellow guild tank, both stationed at iLevel 359~ Eq, while I'm not far at 356~ Eq, then I'm very confused because I can't figure out how to maintain aggro in such situations or how do they. The only thing I didn't use in my rotation was Consecration, other than that just I just prioritized CS/SoTR/AS/J/HW.

I never gave much thought to this before as the only measure I used to react to such taunts was Omen, with no drive of maximizing my DPS at the limit and etc, so any explanations/advices you have regarding the above block of text would be much appreciated.

P.S - Sorry if my English is a bit funky. It is a second language to me and I'm a tad too tired on top of it.

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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Epimer » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:44 am

In short, you're correct and the other guy is being an idiot. Even before Vengeance was implemented it was a stupid idea to continue your rotation on tank swap fights immediately after a taunt, because what if the new tank gets a couple of back-to-back misses/dodges/parries and the tank who's just been taunted from crits with his first threat move? Vengeance absolutely compounds this issue though, given the big AP disparity between two tanks in that situation (except for Warriors, who get to keep some Vengeance rolling even when they're not the one tanking).

A tank trying to maximise DPS on Chimaeron before P2 is a load of crap anyway, since you might well be holding back later on to line up the phase transition with the raid being topped off before another Massacre occurs.

The only solution is to impress upon the other tank that their carelessness is wiping the raid. They're causing wipes due to something which is 100% avoidable, and that's just terrible play. The tank swaps on Chimaeron are often enough that you can't cover them with Tricks/MD so the other guy just needs to be less of a "LOL BIG NUMBERS" meathead and start playing as part of a team.
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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby PsiVen » Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:56 am

The start of the fight is always the most vulnerable time. If the Break tank is not very careful, he can easily rip aggro back from the first taunt. If it's happening later than the first double attack, that means there's a serious threat mismatch and he needs to be careful every time.
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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Gebeleizis » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:34 am

First please let's refrain calling names. The said tank was trying to be helpful during the run and I doubt that he wanted to impress anyone, not to mention I probably did more than a couple of mistakes and stupid things too. It's a learning curve and I'm sure we'll get him down eventually.
I was just trying to find out if I was correct about how I think Vengeance plays in this fight, to be more prepared next time and call what I see wrong early on.

Thank you for answers, they are much appreciated. Any other feedback is welcomed as well.

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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Kihra » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:31 pm

One thing you can do is just tank all the way to the first Massacre and not have the DA tank taunt. You start the fight with no Break stacks, so as long as your healers really heal you (instead of just keeping you above 10k), you can eat the first couple of Double Attacks pre-Massacre just fine. This also helps you maximize Vengeance so that there's more of an initial threat lead.
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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Audax » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:55 pm

While in general a tank should avoid pulling off another tank after the other tank taunted, in the specific case of Chimaeron the DA tank only needs to have aggro at a specific, predicatable moment in time. As a result the DA tank can delay the taunt a bit to ensure that the fixate effect is still up when the double attack occurs and then there is no need to worry about the other tank pulling off. This is also good practice for heroic if you want to use bubble-taunting to deal with any of the feud double attacks. The double attack tank, of course, does need to avoid pulling off the break tank after the break tank taunts back.

You can use an addon to show a timer estimating the time left until the double attack swing, it isn't really needed on normal but I would recommend it on heroic for bubble taunting or getting the most melee swings covered by each of your cooldowns.
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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Arianne » Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:42 pm

He puts up the DA buff when he attacks, so you know that the next swing will be 5s later. Count to 3, taunt, then let the other guy pull him back.
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Re: Chimaeron, Taunts and Aggro

Postby Crimsonheart » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:58 pm

As a pally tank on this fight i tank the double attacks as well. I do not even use righteous fury for the fight. As someone previously mentioned just taunted 2-3seconds after the double attack buff goes up. What this does is the swing time is 4.4seconds, the taunt fixate will still be up while the swing is incoming, before the hit if i need hp i pop WoG (otherwize i pop it after if i didnt pop it to save someone) and ill DP if im below 75percent hp which does happen on ocasion.
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