Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

[Passionario]

well since i am a HUGE wow lore nerd....
it really kicks up my OCD when someone refers to thier Forsaken toon as undead....i mean yes it is undead, but it is not one of the mindless scourge that is under the LKs control, they have thier own mind and free will
they are undead, but they are not JUST undead they are one of the Forsaken

The Forsaken are a political group/nation of Undead. Just like Darkspear Tribe is a group of Trolls.

Saying "my character is Undead" is no more wrong than calling him or her "a Dwarf" (without specifying clan allegiance).

Don't care about their free will, they are monsters. Abominations that need to be put down once and for all. That is what Paladins do.

There is a word for people who kill others on sight for what they are (as opposed to for what they do), but it's not "Paladins".

Besides, in the grand scheme of things, all of our characters are abominations against the Titans' will, forever tainted by the corrupting curse of the Old Gods.

[Shoju]

There is a word for people who kill others on sight for what they are (as opposed to for what they do), but it's not "Paladins".

Puttin' my "Derailin' " hat back on.


Yes. That word in WoW, is Human.

[Passionario]

LMFAO DWARVEN CAT FIGHT!
(wait wouldnt that be more of a bulldog fight? ..... *runs and hides*)

"This is a glory Proving, fought under the watchful eyes of the Paragons of Maintankadin! First one to fall is vanquished!

[halabar]

Don't care about their free will, they are monsters. Abominations that need to be put down once and for all. That is what Paladins do.

There is a word for people who kill others on sight for what they are (as opposed to for what they do), but it's not "Paladins".

Besides, in the grand scheme of things, all of our characters are abominations against the Titans' will, forever tainted by the corrupting curse of the Old Gods.

So when the next zombie invasion comes, you'll be checking first for recent brain-eating activity? good luck with that.

The Forsaken are more than just a group of undead. They are humans that have died and been brought back to unlife, or been killed and converted immediately by the plague. From the human perspective, there's no way to accept that. It's zombie time.

Living out here on the left-coast, I can just imagine it being rationalized as "Well Timmy, your aunt Sue is different now. Sure she died in that car wreck, but she is alive again, sort of, and you can't hold it against here that she killed and ate Mom. Aunt Sue has the right to do that now, and because she's different we can't discriminate against her.. please Timmy, put down that Thunderfury.. Timmy, no.. don't..."

[Amirya]

Living out here on the left-coast, I can just imagine it being rationalized as "Well Timmy, your aunt Sue is different now. Sure she died in that car wreck, but she is alive again, sort of, and you can't hold it against here that she killed and ate Mom. Aunt Sue has the right to do that now, and because she's different we can't discriminate against her.. please Timmy, put down that Thunderfury.. Timmy, no.. don't..."

I don't think Timmy the Cruel ever wielded Thunderfury in Stratholme.

[Kelaan]

There is a word for people who kill others on sight for what they are (as opposed to for what they do), but it's not "Paladins".

While I admit it sounds a lot like a Commissar or an Inquisitor (hehe), I think we do our fair share of putting things down for what they are, too. I mean ... zombies? Undead? Pest control. Granted, most of the time we're trying to combat Evil -- and in that case it's often hard to separate Being from Doing. I definitely prefer punishing actions, and encouraging redemption, rather than assuming someone is irredeemable, but I'm sure we've done our fair share of the latter.

[halabar]

I definitely prefer punishing actions, and encouraging redemption, rather than assuming someone is irredeemable, but I'm sure we've done our fair share of the latter.

There's the crux of the problem. Are the Forsaken redeemable? What are they really? Even as an Orc I would have slim hopes for that.

But at a core level, saying they need to be redeemed implies that they are wrong. In human terms, yes, they are an abomination, and need redeeming (at the heavy end of a mace). Of course, the Forsaken would say they don't need to be redeemed, and they should be allowed to spread the plague as they see fit, and there's not really any middle ground there.

Sometimes conflicts simply don't have neutral "enlightened" higher solution. It really is Red or Blue.

[Passionario]

So when the next zombie invasion comes, you'll be checking first for recent brain-eating activity? good luck with that.

Funny that you should mention that. As far as I recall, during the darkest hour of the last zombie invasion, when the combined efforts of the Horde, Alliance and Argent Dawn have failed to stem the brain-hungry tide, it was the Royal Apothecary Society - arguably the most evil and cruel sub-faction of the Forsaken - who came up with the miraculous cure.

That's right. Every single man, woman and child in Azeroth owns their lives to Putress.

But at a core level, saying they need to be redeemed implies that they are wrong. In human terms, yes, they are an abomination, and need redeeming (at the heavy end of a mace). Of course, the Forsaken would say they don't need to be redeemed, and they should be allowed to spread the plague as they see fit, and there's not really any middle ground there.

Sometimes conflicts simply don't have neutral "enlightened" higher solution. It really is Red or Blue.

And from Algalon's perspective, humans (and other fleshy races) are an abomination that needs to be redeemed via re-origination. Perhaps the same logic that is used in the resolution of that encounter can be applied here. Since the Forsaken managed to survive and persist against all odds, maybe they have a higher purpose in the grand scheme of things.

[Fetzie]

And from Algalon's perspective, humans (and other fleshy races) are an abomination that needs to be redeemed via re-origination. Perhaps the same logic that is used in the resolution of that encounter can be applied here. Since the Forsaken managed to survive and persist against all odds, maybe they have a higher purpose in the grand scheme of things.

they beat me up so I'm going to continue watching them and leave them alone? And who said violence was not the answer

[halabar]

But at a core level, saying they need to be redeemed implies that they are wrong. In human terms, yes, they are an abomination, and need redeeming (at the heavy end of a mace). Of course, the Forsaken would say they don't need to be redeemed, and they should be allowed to spread the plague as they see fit, and there's not really any middle ground there.

Sometimes conflicts simply don't have neutral "enlightened" higher solution. It really is Red or Blue.

And from Algalon's perspective, humans (and other fleshy races) are an abomination that needs to be redeemed via re-origination. Perhaps the same logic that is used in the resolution of that encounter can be applied here. Since the Forsaken managed to survive and persist against all odds, maybe they have a higher purpose in the grand scheme of things.

That argument would be stronger (from the human perspective) if Sylvanas (sp?) wasn't actively "recruiting" with plague-spreaders. But since she is, that sets up the either-or dilemma.

[Brekkie]

Moral relativism is an intrinsically short-sighted, illogical position.

Applying moral relativism to undead that are actively doing great evil in the world by ANY standard of neutral evaluation by saying that they are only following their self interest is retarded.
There is nothing equally moral about following your self-interest when doing so means committing evil on others.

The horde were active pawns of the Burning Legion in the very recent past. Their entire plot line is about redemption from being the agents of the destruction of the entire world. There is no way whatsoever you can ever portray the horde as "just as good as" the alliance. I've played both, so I have no bias, but claiming otherwise is extremely selective revisionist history.

[fafhrd]

The fuck...

I kill gnomes because I like the sound they make as they die, that's about it. You people are crazy.

[Sabindeus]

The fuck...

I kill gnomes because I like the sound they make as they die, that's about it. You people are crazy.

says the psychopath

[Sabindeus]

The horde were active pawns of the Burning Legion in the very recent past. Their entire plot line is about redemption from being the agents of the destruction of the entire world. There is no way whatsoever you can ever portray the horde as "just as good as" the alliance. I've played both, so I have no bias, but claiming otherwise is extremely selective revisionist history.

[sahiel]

The horde were active pawns of the Burning Legion in the very recent past. Their entire plot line is about redemption from being the agents of the destruction of the entire world. There is no way whatsoever you can ever portray the horde as "just as good as" the alliance. I've played both, so I have no bias, but claiming otherwise is extremely selective revisionist history.

Orcs != The Horde.

An orc may run the Horde but claiming every single part of a multiracial, multifactional group to be at fault for the actions of a single part of that group, from before they joined is just as ridiculous. Otherwise we can label the entire Alliance as genocidal murderers intent on the ending of all life. After all, Arthas and the Scourge were human...

If being mind controlled (Arthas) by the Burning Legion (Ner'zhul) and forced/tricked into unleashing wholesale slaughter and devastation upon the world doesn't count for the Alliance. Then being mind controlled (Hellscream) by the Burning Legion (Mannoroth) and forced/tricked into unleashing wholesale slaughter and devastation upon the world doesn't count for the Horde.