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Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:09 pm

Fivelives wrote:Article 9: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Unenforceable: what exactly do you think the INS is for, anyway? They're there to exile people (deportation is a form of exile)


Explain your reasoning there? I thought exile refers specifically to a citizen of a country being forced to leave, not a non-citizen.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 06, 2011 1:11 pm

Yep.

I am in full agreement there. It´s a problem of the UN that it´s powers of punishment are very weak. Well no one wanted an international council gain actual rights to meddle in their affairs or use it to their own advantage.

The ICC is a possible solution, but well not everyone signed in, like for example the USA.

Still it was a declaration and a major milestone that governments said, oh yeah, we can agree on that, as rights of a human being, even if they disobey them when it suits them.
So is your argument now, well there are human rights but forget about them, because no one cares at the moment? That the US government should throw them away just because other not so friendly nations do the same, like every nation in the pool of nations called rogue states? Nice idea. Do you want the US considered to be a rogue state, too?

Well, anyways your point was that US hasn´t denied the Gitmo inmates any rights, because these rights are civil liberties of citizens. My point was that the US violated several human rights in the process. I admit that the USSC and the government have taken some steps to address the issue, very hesitantly on part of the government. So you agree but your point is that the declaration of human rights is irrelevant anyways. Fine. I admit that several nations don´t care at all, I thought the US would care. they didn´t. The USA had a window of opportunity when it was the sole remaining superpower. It squandered it and wasted resources when it deided that might makes right is the correct approach. The only result was that everyone saw that the US cared about human rights as much as a rogue state and that it is unable to force his goals with its power and resurces. It´s a bit dissappointing that the US talked about human rights highly and then discarded them at the earliest opportunity. I understand that the US is reluctant to play world policeman and asks himself "why me, no one wants me to intrude in their affairs anyways", it still could have helped to create an institution to take this role.

I think we can agree that the examples you stated are atrocities more or less (ok the INS or immigration laws in general needs revision but I wouldn´t say they are an atrocity). And we should work to reduce the number of human right violations, not shrug and join in. It´s a globalized world and well there are issues that only the whole world together can adress. We should start there. And global terror and organisations like Al´Qaida are one of these global issues. There should be another way to adress this issues. And US going Hulk smash doesn´t help as we see now.

I think we shold try to improve the system, not everyone joinng in cutthroat "Might makes right" politics and similar handling of internal issues. IMO it´s pretty shortsighted anyways.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jun 06, 2011 2:21 pm

My bad, Sabindeus. I was thinking of exile as a broader defined term - to mean "kick someone out".

So is your argument now, well there are human rights but forget about them, because no one cares at the moment? That the US government should throw them away just because other not so friendly nations do the same, like every nation in the pool of nations called rogue states? Nice idea. Do you want the US considered to be a rogue state, too?


Not exactly, no. I conceded the point about human rights violations - they are being violated. My argument is the same - people are calling it a "human rights violation" because detainees are not being given a trial by jury (for example), which is a United States civil liberty that does not apply.

That was my point in the beginning, and it's still my point now. Sorry if I wasn't clear on it - this is as clear as I can state it.

I understand that the US is reluctant to play world policeman


Bwa? Since when have we been reluctant to police the rest of the world?

There should be another way to adress this issues. And US going Hulk smash doesn´t help as we see now.


The United States was, until relatively recently, one of the only countries to be almost entirely unscathed by terrorist attacks. Other countries (especially in the middle-east) have already learned the painful lessons that we've just started to learn over the last decade or so. I'm not sure exactly WHAT those lessons are, because countries that have been dealing with terrorism for millenniums sure aren't sharing them with us. Maybe they're just relieved that the focus is off of them and they get to rest for a little while and maybe hit the grocery store without fear for a change.

Or maybe they're just glad that it's finally happening to us, because deep down they think we deserve it and it's long overdue - who knows?

I think we shold try to improve the system, not everyone joinng in cutthroat "Might makes right" politics and similar handling of internal issues. IMO it´s pretty shortsighted anyways.


Not going to disagree there. Tyranny has never been a viable strategy for long-term gains, and I doubt it's going to start being one now. The problem is that nobody can come up with a way to improve the situation - we all like to sit back and be armchair generals and say "this isn't working", but unless that statement is followed by "how about we try ...", then it's just an empty complaint.

The saying is "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" - but maybe it should be "If it's broken, fix it" instead. Our country has become so apathetic that the sheer inertia is just another problem to pile on the list. Our collective attention spans are maybe long enough to rival the average gnat or goldfish, but I can't come up with a way to fix that. So I'm contributing to the problem as well. See, we all say that we want to fix the problems, but when asked "okay, so how would YOU fix them?" nobody has an answer.

Robin Williams, in his movie "Man of the Year" ad-libbed about how we as Americans are highly vulnerable to WMDs - Weapons of Mass Distraction. As long as our government isn't directly affecting our lives negatively by interfering with our daily routines, then we just can't be bothered to give a shit. Why? Because oooohh, shiney. "Oh look! Lady Gaga wore a dress made of MEAT" or "Paris Hilton just released a sex tape!" "Here's a picture of a cat with an amusingly misspelled phrase on it!"... the list goes on and on. It's distraction after distraction after distraction. Who's going to the Superbowl? How about the NCAA championships? Did you see that home run that ARod just hit? OH SWEET, DANCING WITH THE STARS!

What needs to happen is that we need to come up with the grit and determination to get a true will to power going in order to effect any true changes at all. And we need a leadership that's unafraid to take that will to power and channel it in a positive direction - first here at home, then radiating abroad.

Or not. I'm perfectly fine with a more isolationist stance in foreign affairs.

The problem is this: nobody knows how. On the one hand, the people that have ideas are shot down by others who are espousing their own ideas (that conflict with the rest of the ideas, naturally), and on the other hand, even more people who have ideas are being silenced by the sheer enormity of the apathy they'll face, or the size and weight of the problems themselves. See, I can pinpoint WHERE and WHAT the problems are - but I have no solutions to suggest for them.

I wish I did, and that I had the power to focus our nation on buckling down and doing ONE thing... OHEY JUSTIN BIEBER IS UP TO 81 TWEETS A MINUTE ON TWITTER!
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jun 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Fivelives wrote:Bwa? Since when have we been reluctant to police the rest of the world?


Thought so because it was a statement by several politicians, because of costs etc. And well one country intruding in the sovereign rights of another nation, doesn´t work well.

Not going to disagree there. Tyranny has never been a viable strategy for long-term gains, and I doubt it's going to start being one now. The problem is that nobody can come up with a way to improve the situation - we all like to sit back and be armchair generals and say "this isn't working", but unless that statement is followed by "how about we try ...", then it's just an empty complaint.


You mean what the opposition in parliament does usually?
Well probably some of my ideas are just horrible or can´t be implemented against the possible resistance.
Probably everyone who is a signatory of the declaration of human rights has to join the ICC.
The treaties you signed on the global level should actually have some means to be enforced. Not only if it suits some member nations, like in the case of Lybia (even when it´sjustified, it´s weird that other crises are ignored).
Ok we have to take a look at current political bodies that are composed of sovereign states, like the UN, EU and perhaps even the United States. I know that the US is a cmplete political entity but is composed of several states that seem more independant from the central authority than in other countries. The UN is a world organisation with several global organisations but without any real political power. The Eu is an attempt to fuse several very different souvereign states together, even if the implementation sometimes fail horribly.
The UN seems to me to have the problem of veto in the security council an it´s big and burdened wit a huge bureaucracy. You can probably learn from every system stated and try to avoid its mistakes.
Perhaps the first step would be to implement political bodies in the world that are similar. Something like the Arab League but with more authority or a better European Union. Continental is probably too big in several cases. the japanese don´t have much of a common basis with arabs. You could rework the security council into an assembly of spokesmen from these Unions (possible problem is that it is pretty undemocratic). Reform the UN stuff into something like Senate and House. one based on nation, the other one on population. Give the reformed UN measures to actually get their money and its own military and police. Most stuff probably should be done on a local level within the sub bodies like EU, middle Eastern league etc. to keep out outside interference. Only if the local bodies are deadlocked or unable to solve the problem on their own, let the global body step in.
You probably need some global agencies that work on problems like global economy, ecology, terror etc.

Big plan, there are probably a lot of resistances by nations or even inhabitants of the nation who fear that they lose their national identity or that they have to pay for the mistakes of other nations 8see recent EU and Greece). Another problem is possible bloat or that nations use these bodies to get rid of people by promoting their problematic persons away.
Well seems to me, that we are taking some steps on this ay rgardless. Some problems are global in nature. It´s only that the current batch of politicians is loathe to give up power or trying to push burdens on other nations.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Masumi » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:16 pm

the cost effective way to stop all crime is to kneel down all criminals on their knees and finish them off with a shot on the back of the head. unfortunately we as humans stating as a collective not religion or race or anything but we have the tendency of feeling sorry for others and so both emotions clash as we first demand justice but coward when justice is shown to us in a cold hard truth. if the UN was to take the just measures then they would go into a place being oppressed and kill all those that cause harm but then the people that cry for justice would turn and say "you shot those people, how could you?" political discussions go to see how much they should do and in the end they end up not doing enough and people will still bitch.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:09 am

If you executed all criminals, not matter what the crime, think how abusive framing someone for petty crimes would be. Juries would be very hesitant to convict anyone of anything, knowing that the penalty was always death.

Everyone is guilty of something. Everyone has driven over the speed limit occasionally, or walked away from a busy shop with incorrect change and not bothered to go fight their way back to give back the tiny amount of excess change.

I don't think executing everyone is a good long-term stratagem.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:08 am

Masumi wrote:the cost effective way to stop all crime is to kneel down all criminals on their knees and finish them off with a shot on the back of the head. unfortunately we as humans stating as a collective not religion or race or anything but we have the tendency of feeling sorry for others and so both emotions clash as we first demand justice but coward when justice is shown to us in a cold hard truth. if the UN was to take the just measures then they would go into a place being oppressed and kill all those that cause harm but then the people that cry for justice would turn and say "you shot those people, how could you?" political discussions go to see how much they should do and in the end they end up not doing enough and people will still bitch.


Ah, so the Tarkin Doctrine then?

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You know, there's a reason that the Empire was the bad guy in Star Wars. "Kill anyone who misbehaves in any way whatsoever" isn't a very successful long-term strategy for building a stable civilization if history is any indicator.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:26 am

I've got an idea to solve two of our government problems.

First, our government has lately become so divided along party lines that it's almost impossible for the conservatives and liberals to agree on anything. I can almost see another civil war in our future - only this time instead of north vs south, or east vs west, it's going to be reds vs blues.

So to head that off at the pass, I'm going to form my own political party. It will be called the Toilet Paper Party, and our platform will be "Everybody poops. That's at least ONE thing we can all agree on." The main point of debate will be which way to hang the toilet paper roll - over vs under.

Secondly, people are apathetic and have short attention spans. We see problems, but we rarely see solutions - and when solutions are found, our attention span is too short to implement those solutions... If we can be bothered to get off our asses in the first place.

So to fix that, I'm going to run for political office on the Toilet Paper Party ticket. I'm going to be honest with the people - I will not perform any duties of the office, except insofar as those duties might highlight the corruption in the entire system. I remember seeing a video somewhere of like 6-8 people in a chamber for a vote - and those 6-8 people were running around rampantly (and OBVIOUSLY) voting for the absent members. My entire political "career" will last no longer than one term, during which I will do everything in my power to get people pissed off enough to overcome their apathy.

After my term in office is over, I'll "retire" from politics and continue my publicity stunt campaigns, this time highlighting just how ridiculous the retirement package really is. What other job can you serve 2-6 years, then retire with the same benefits as though you'd actually served 40+ years? Full 100% paid medical benefits with the best doctors in the country, immunity from misdemeanor ticketing/arrest/prosecution, and up to 80% of my salary as a congressman for the rest of my life, adjusted for cost of living increases.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fetzie » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:54 pm

So to head that off at the pass, I'm going to form my own political party. It will be called the Toilet Paper Party, and our platform will be "Everybody poops. That's at least ONE thing we can all agree on." The main point of debate will be which way to hang the toilet paper roll - over vs under.


That discussion will outlast a single term in office...
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:02 pm

Exactly. Instead of conservatives vs liberals, it'll be overhangers vs underhangers. We can agree on all the important shit and then argue about the stuff that doesn't really matter at all.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Masumi » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:53 pm

Candiru wrote:If you executed all criminals, not matter what the crime, think how abusive framing someone for petty crimes would be. Juries would be very hesitant to convict anyone of anything, knowing that the penalty was always death.

Everyone is guilty of something. Everyone has driven over the speed limit occasionally, or walked away from a busy shop with incorrect change and not bothered to go fight their way back to give back the tiny amount of excess change.

I don't think executing everyone is a good long-term stratagem.

my comment was just stating that we as people, want justice and want nothing bad to happen in the world but if we are shown a clear way of fixing such problem we bitch. so no matter what the UN does we will continue to bitch and this thread will continue to grow with no end in sight.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:34 pm

That's exactly the problem, Minn. People want justice, but we have to temper it with mercy otherwise it's like the old saying "An eye for an eye just makes everyone blind". If we executed everyone that committed some infraction, then who would execute the executioners?

Think of all the silly laws we have on the books still today - for instance, in Mohave County, AZ, it's illegal to bathe more than once per week. In almost every town, it's illegal to honk your horn because it might scare the horses. In Carmel, NY, it's against the law to eat ice cream while standing on the sidewalk.

If you think it would be a good idea to execute everyone that breaks a law, then you'd have to throw out nearly all of the current laws and rewrite them with that punishment in mind.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:01 pm

Well we don´t want to consider that it could actually happen that someone is ehm well innocent. Heard it happens all the time but well only anecdotal. There is probably a statistic out there how often it happens. But well you would save a lot of money if the convicted guy is just taken behind the courthouse and shot. No need for appellation courts or that you have to pay recompensation in case he is actually innocent. Of course I wouldn´t pay a dime to the relatives in this case. Too much potential abuse and you don´t want to massacre a whole family.

And not every case is watertight with a CSI like mountain of evidence.

Well even the most draconian governments, current and in history never used the death penalty for everything. Actually our ancestors had law systems that used a more severe punishment catalog than what is used today. They abandoned it. Unless you think that people in history were just a bunch of morons, they probably had a good reason for it.
And it seems that even the more "fun"(being sarcastic here) corporal punishments like beating, chopping off the hands, blinding etc never kept a society out of trouble, at least it doesn´t seem to work for most of them.

Also it seems that execution isn´t really a deterrant or you wouldn´t have capital crimes that get punished by it.
But well let´s not argue the death penalty but the death penalty for everything. Ok let´s exclude minor traffic infractions and similar stuff, unless you think that being 5 mph over the speeding limit should be punished by death. Would be quite a spectacle, you could save the court time and money. Cop pulls you over, shows you the reading, executes you on the spot. Makes traffic controls quite interesting. Our ancestors in the middle ages or even modern times, liked a good public execution. Unless it´s blocking traffic. This will be punished by a headshot of course.

Oh and at what age do we start. All these juvenile delinquents. This 12y old over there. If he starts with crime at such a tender age, we should do some prevention and not detention. Good clean kill, please. And if the 12y old is already on the block, we should start with 10y olds. Want to catch these criminals early before they commit serious crimes, don´t we.

And well, there are quite a lot of crimes that even normally law abiding citizens can commit. It´s not all murder, rape, drug dealing and theft. If you get in a heated argument with your neighbour, touch him and have a baseball bat in hand, say hello to assault. "Some states also define assault as an attempt to menace (or actual menacing) by placing another person in fear of imminent serious bodily injury"
A fistfight while drunk is assault/battery.
If you punish stealing in a shop by execution, even if you are hungry and have nothing to eat/no money at all, accidental manslaughter certainly deserves the death penalty.

Or the Simple assault "Simple assault can be distinguished without the intent of injury upon another person. The violation of one's personal space or touching in a way the victim deemed inappropriate can be simple assault."

You made a mistake on your taxform and the court thinks it wasn´t just a mistake. To the block you evil person.

Or there is an obscure thing that is only punished by a fine. BAM, you won´t do it again. Hope you learned your lesson.

Well, I hope that the country you employ this system in, suffers from severe overpopulation. You are filling quite a lot of graves

Sorry this is just silly. As Fivelies said you would have to rewrite the whole lawsystem even without the silly laws hat were part of a different time or circumstances. You have to differentiate between some crimes and well then you have a catalog of punishments again. Or if you want to keep it simple, you have to drop quite a few things that are punished by the lawsystem currently.

I was quite a bit sarcastic in this post.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Passionario » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:44 am

Masumi wrote:the cost effective way to stop all crime is to kneel down all criminals on their knees and finish them off with a shot on the back of the head


Soviet communists tried this approach during the Civil War and the following Repression. It worked as poorly as one would expect.

I'd say that the most cost effective way to stop crime is to decriminalize everything. If everything is permissible, then, by definition, no one can possibly commit a crime.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Arnock » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:12 am

Yes, that would stop 'crime' by definition, but it would do nothing to stop the acts from being committed.

Theft and murder are still theft and murder, whether legal or not.
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