Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

[Shoju]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at. Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

That's why the alliance are attacking horde in the barrens?

Also who do we ally ourselves with while hating them? That's just silly.

Pretty early on in the Human questing experience during TBC/Wrath (around 3.0 I decided to try a human) there were quests early on that talked about the disdain for dwarwf / gnomes and their presence in SW / Being allied with them. I don't remember where the quests were, but I know that my human didn't live past 30 (I didn't like their animations and bulk at all) so it was before that somewhere in Human starting land / redridge / stormwind / duskwood, Since I killed him when I just Couldn't bother going back to STV on another character.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

Its kind of like the "most trolls comment" and meant purely in jest. Like almost all my human hating comments I drop when you are around and there is a discussion going on about it.

Honestly, The fabio proportions and rigid "My G.I. Joes moved better than that when I was 9" animations that really make me hate humans.

I mean, I wish you could see my DK standing on my armory page in all his glory instead of bent in that silly position. He is menacing, and cool looking, and just so different looking than trolls from any other fantasy setting, with REALLY cool lore (even if a little overdone and /beaten with a stick to death) Heck, I wish I could defect and join the Zandalari and unite the troll races.

[Sabindeus]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at. Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

That's why the alliance are attacking horde in the barrens?

Yep. That whole conflict started in Ashenvale.

Also who do we ally ourselves with while hating them? That's just silly.

Pretty early on in the Human questing experience during TBC/Wrath (around 3.0 I decided to try a human) there were quests early on that talked about the disdain for dwarwf / gnomes and their presence in SW / Being allied with them. I don't remember where the quests were, but I know that my human didn't live past 30 (I didn't like their animations and bulk at all) so it was before that somewhere in Human starting land / redridge / stormwind / duskwood, Since I killed him when I just Couldn't bother going back to STV on another character.

I admit I don't know which quests you're referring to, but you can't take idle comments from one Human to be indicative of the entire race's attitude! Dwarves and gnomes are fine. I'm happy to call them my allies.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

Its kind of like the "most trolls comment" and meant purely in jest. Like almost all my human hating comments I drop when you are around and there is a discussion going on about it.

Honestly, The fabio proportions and rigid "My G.I. Joes moved better than that when I was 9" animations that really make me hate humans.

I mean, I wish you could see my DK standing on my armory page in all his glory instead of bent in that silly position. He is menacing, and cool looking, and just so different looking than trolls from any other fantasy setting, with REALLY cool lore (even if a little overdone and /beaten with a stick to death) Heck, I wish I could defect and join the Zandalari and unite the troll races.

Similarly.

Honestly at this point I am so used to the human animations, but honestly ALL the original vanilla races look dated at this point, and Human was the first.

Also I played Human exclusively in Warcraft 2. That takes dedication! Especially considering how powerful Bloodlust was vs Heal.

[Shathus]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

Psh, they have a racial called Every Man for Himself. Sounds to me like they care more about themselves and their survival than others, pretty selfish imo

fwiw, I only have 1 alliance character (DK so I never played through starting areas, etc) and it's a dwarf, but if I ever faction changed for some reason, it would def be a dwarf paladin.

[halabar]

Well, speaking as a recent defector...

Having seen the actions of the Stormwind leadership prior to, during, and after the Cataclysm, I was appalled at the treatment of their own people, displaced citizens being forced outside the city, while they can't even deal with the traitors within their own ranks. The dwarven leadership has taken a dark turn as well bringing Moria back into the fold, and the ineptitude of the gnomes is clear.

Meanwhile, Garrosh is doing his thing, and he can't, or won't, snuff that treacherous Sylvanis once and for all.. twiddling his fangs while she spreads the plague unabated..

.. to think I became an Orc. One can only hope better leadership will emerge.

But the forsaken.. nothing good can come of them. They should be dealt with.. like any disease.

[Holyblaze]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

THIS!!!!!!!! haha BAM! GO GO

[bldavis]

out of all the horde races, the only ones i like and have respect for are the trolls (due to Vol'Jin's actions when Garrosh took over as warchief...he told thrall he didnt like it but he would still support the horde out of respect for thrall) and goblins...just cause they have no qualms over being themselves..thier greedy coniving goblin selfs

[Shoju]

Vol'jin has more bad ass in one tusk than all the leaders of the alliance combined.

[bldavis]

Vol'jin has more bad ass in one tusk than all the leaders of the alliance combined.

i agree and i play alliance mostly!
that said, i am also annoyed as hell with the return of Moria and the Darkirons

[sahiel]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at.

*cough*Proudmore*cough* Oh look at that, The Alliance Grand Admiral invading Kalimdor, reaving the coastline and murdering every Orc he could find. If the actions of one of the very top military men of the Alliance can't be laid squarely at their footsteps i'm not sure what can. He even went so far as to establish the castle of Tiragarde Keep so his men would have a base from which to constantly crusade against the Orcs.

Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

If only you'd done the same when the Scourge invaded Quel'thalas perhaps the Blood Elves would never have been driven to the Horde, clearly some allies are more deserving of aid than others to the humans.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

It's good to know there are no other examples of humans betraying their allies or trying to commit racially motivated mass murder. Oh... wait... Grand Marshall Garithos removing all support from the blood elves during the battle to defend Dalaran so they'd be killed... then when some of them they survived regardless (the rest having died defending a human city lets not forget) he ordered them all arrested and executed as traitors... yeah, go humans! Those guys are angels!

Putting aside the amusing back and forth for a moment, I don't think anyone can sensibly look at the Horde or Alliance and say they're "good guys", or try to claim one side is better than the other. Both sides have embraced racists, murderers and people who should rightly have been tried for terrible crimes. Neither side is realistically good or bad, they're far more complicated than that, which is why the lore is so interesting and able to generate such passionate discussions.

[Kelaan]

I don't think anyone can sensibly look at the Horde or Alliance and say they're "good guys", or try to claim one side is better than the other. Both sides have embraced racists, murderers and people who should rightly have been tried for terrible crimes.

Agreed, especially about the interesting lore. When I first made an orc toon, I was like, "Man, that Proudmoore guy's a dick! Can I kill him?" -- and I felt similarly about Varian when I first encountered him (and before I understood his backstory).


It's good to be a Draenei. Aside from their ostracism of the Broken, I can't think of much they've done to be bad. I imagine they'd have gotten along well with the Tauren, had the Argus landed someplace else.

[Sabindeus]

*cough*Proudmore*cough* Oh look at that, The Alliance Grand Admiral invading Kalimdor, reaving the coastline and murdering every Orc he could find. If the actions of one of the very top military men of the Alliance can't be laid squarely at their footsteps i'm not sure what can. He even went so far as to establish the castle of Tiragarde Keep so his men would have a base from which to constantly crusade against the Orcs.

The thing is, I don't actually think any of the other Alliance leaders actually backed up the actions of Kul Tiras during that period. In fact Kul Tiras has been shut off from the rest of the Alliance for a long while now, since Admiral Proudmoore's death, so I don't really think you can say that they're affiliated anymore. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jaina's brother is in charge now and hates her for betraying their father, and Theramore is decidedly an important member nation of the Alliance, so I can't imagine we'd be on good terms anymore.

Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

If only you'd done the same when the Scourge invaded Quel'thalas perhaps the Blood Elves would never have been driven to the Horde, clearly some allies are more deserving of aid than others to the humans.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

It's good to know there are no other examples of humans betraying their allies or trying to commit racially motivated mass murder. Oh... wait... Grand Marshall Garithos removing all support from the blood elves during the battle to defend Dalaran so they'd be killed... then when some of them they survived regardless (the rest having died defending a human city lets not forget) he ordered them all arrested and executed as traitors... yeah, go humans! Those guys are angels! :D

Garithos was a traitor. He turned himself over to the Undead. Definitely tragic, but in the end no one is condoning his actions.

As for the Third War, I am pretty sure none of the Alliance armies had much to contribute to the Elves at that point, nor did they have the time to catch up to the Scourge after they all died of the plague and then were raised as undead and then razed all of Lordaeron on their way North to Quel'thalas. You know, because the Elves were the only ones to take losses during the Scourge invasion. But the Elves have had a history of isolationism and not wanting to be involved, so it's not exactly surprising. They were uninvolved with the First War. During the Second War, they refused all requests to join the Alliance while the Orcs made there way through Stormwind and Khaz Modan, making only a token contribution due to their debt to the Arathor bloodline from the troll wars. And when they got jumped by the combined Troll/Orc forces, only then did they send their actual Ranger forces to join up with the Allied Human/Dwarf army. And then afterwards they were supremely unwilling to take part in any of the following Alliance actions. So it's really not surprising what happened during the Third War.

Putting aside the amusing back and forth for a moment, I don't think anyone can sensibly look at the Horde or Alliance and say they're "good guys", or try to claim one side is better than the other. Both sides have embraced racists, murderers and people who should rightly have been tried for terrible crimes. Neither side is realistically good or bad, they're far more complicated than that, which is why the lore is so interesting and able to generate such passionate discussions.

Yep. That's why I love it. But keep in mind, saying both sides have "embraced racists, murderers, etc." is a little misleading. You can't assume that anyone was "embraced" per se, only that both sides have their share of bad eggs like any society does. Yeah, some dudes in power in the Alliance got away with some bad shit. That's true. But plenty of worse stuff happened Horde-side.

[Bladesong]

When we first decided to one tank V&T I bit the bullet and cobbled together a Ret set. The GM declared that anyone who did less dps than me had to pay 100g to the guild vault (traditionally, I have been spectacularly bad in any non-tanking role). The weird part is that it seemed to motivate me more than anyone else.

Man every so often someone comes out against ingame sound and I really don't get it. I feel crippled when I try to play this game with sound off.

I would be lost without the combat sounds, so yeah, lil XT was worth the price. Those train sets are to me what tribbles are to Klingons. I also have a full set of /cancelaura macros that I rotate onto a secondary bar to line up with the current holiday so I can quickly recover from pre-pull costume shenanigans. Now if I could just find a way to be immune to Lifegrip while out of combat...

Oh and the Forsaken not being able to be Paladins was the one crushing disappointment I had with this expansion. That would have been so cool!

[Koatanga]

gnomes are fine.

That is just wrong.

[Sabindeus]

gnomes are fine.

That is just wrong.

no u

[sahiel]

The thing is, I don't actually think any of the other Alliance leaders actually backed up the actions of Kul Tiras during that period. In fact Kul Tiras has been shut off from the rest of the Alliance for a long while now, since Admiral Proudmoore's death, so I don't really think you can say that they're affiliated anymore. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Jaina's brother is in charge now and hates her for betraying their father, and Theramore is decidedly an important member nation of the Alliance, so I can't imagine we'd be on good terms anymore.

Garithos was a traitor. He turned himself over to the Undead. Definitely tragic, but in the end no one is condoning his actions.

Yep. That's why I love it. But keep in mind, saying both sides have "embraced racists, murderers, etc." is a little misleading. You can't assume that anyone was "embraced" per se, only that both sides have their share of bad eggs like any society does. Yeah, some dudes in power in the Alliance got away with some bad shit. That's true. But plenty of worse stuff happened Horde-side.

See, I'd disagree, both Proudmore and Garithos were active very high ranking (the highest) military leaders of the Alliance, neither was branded a traitor at the time they took those actions, neither was censored, Proudmore was never ordered back, the Alliance leaders were content to let the majority of their fleet reave the Kalimdor coastline (not one or two ships). Garithos was only called out as a traitor later on when fighting the Dreadlords with Sylvanas, at the time of the battle for Dalaran his actions in regards to the blood elves were accepted without question.

In my mind it's as if a 4 star NATO general ordered a significant portion of their forces to attack another nation (possibly -in- NATO), and, following his orders they do so. Can NATO claim "wasn't our fault! he went-a da craaazy!" and would any other nations, especially the one attacked or betrayed believe/accept that? Unlikely.

In regards to Kul'Tiras, apparently according to the rpg sourcebooks it's "still a valued part of the Alliance", after all it did send merchant ships to Northrend to support the Alliance offensive in Wrath, the Baradin Wardens serve Kul'Tiras in Tol Barad and it patrols the Eastern Kingdoms coast against Murlocs, Naga and Pirates.

If you can come up with some terrible things the Horde has done which the Alliance hasn't done something similar please tell