Interesting Lore Discussion Thread

[Sabindeus]

So to make up for all the derailment I've split this thread off from its original "Guild Rules" thread.

Nikachelle's original thread can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31702
That will return to its regularly scheduled topic of "weird guild rules"

My original post on the topic of WoW races follows:

---
(re: hating gnomes)
Man you guys are just racist

[bldavis]

cows are great!

....tasting

(there is a reason my horde druid is a troll )

[halabar]

Man you guys are just racist

Yes, yes, I am racist against the undead...

[Sabindeus]

Man you guys are just racist

Yes, yes, I am racist against the undead...

Undead isn't a race.

[bldavis]

Man you guys are just racist

Yes, yes, I am racist against the undead...

Undead isn't a race.

undead is a state of being
the bunch of undead that broke free from the LK's control and are now under Lady Sylvanis' leadership are called the Forsaken

L2Lore

[Sabindeus]

Undead isn't a race.

undead is a state of being
the bunch of undead that broke free from the LK's control and are now under Lady Sylvanis' leadership are called the Forsaken

L2Lore :twisted:

Sounds like we agree then

[bldavis]

well since i am a HUGE wow lore nerd....
it really kicks up my OCD when someone refers to thier Forsaken toon as undead....i mean yes it is undead, but it is not one of the mindless scourge that is under the LKs control, they have thier own mind and free will
they are undead, but they are not JUST undead they are one of the Forsaken

now for a truly undead forsaken, take my new horde main - Mortimis
i actually want to RP on this guy a little now....
i might need to make a new one on an RP server (pref with a MTadin friendly guild) just to scratch this itch

[Sabindeus]

See the problem with the Forsaken's claims about free will is that they're full of shit. They basically bring people back to life against their will and then if you disagree with Lady Sylvanas, you get re-killed. Great.

But I'm going to still say Undead is not a race, and the forsaken are still just Undead. Don't care about their free will, they are monsters. Abominations that need to be put down once and for all. That is what Paladins do.

And really I don't have a problem with the other Horde races, individually. (Except maybe Trolls. They're pretty much all evil.) It is more than possible for Orcs and Tauren and Elves and Goblins to be decent people. Hell even Trolls aren't ALL conquering maniacs. (Just most of them, most of the time.) The Horde, however, is terrible and needs to die.

[Aerron]

cows are great!

....tasting

(there is a reason my horde druid is a troll )

I'm always a little disturbed when I'm out doing the Tol Barad dailies to kill left over horde, and one of the Tauren druids drops a Roast Beef as loot. I mean, come on, ew?

[halabar]

cows are great!

....tasting

(there is a reason my horde druid is a troll )

I'm always a little disturbed when I'm out doing the Tol Barad dailies to kill left over horde, and one of the Tauren druids drops a Roast Beef as loot. I mean, come on, ew?

Yeah, really.. roast beef.. probably a crappy cut. There really should be lootable t-bones, prime rib, and other choice cuts.

[Shoju]

The loathing that Sab has for Forsaken, can be applied to humans in game for me. They are the complete and total stereotypical 'terrible human being'. Though, I haven't tried to play their starting area since cata. maybe they aren't a bunch of racist / classist / greedy / expansionistic / kill it because its in my way tards anymore.

For me, Trolls are one of the coolest races, if only because I really REALLY love their society / culture / deity structure, and you don't see trolls like "wow" trolls often if at all in other settings, while you see elves, orcs, undead, gnomes, and dwarves that are pretty close to that 'stereotype' often.

Or maybe I just don't read enough crap with trolls in it.

Either way, Da Voodoo be strong in dis one mon.

[Sabindeus]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

[sahiel]

All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

By which the expansionistic, racist, genocidal monsters known as 'humans' mean 'all of it'.

[Shoju]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

Yeah, and then you "ally" yourselves with other races, but hate them at the same time.... And you kill people instead of paying them the money that is rightfully theirs, and you think that all the land is rightfully yours.

Human. The other white meat.

[Sabindeus]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

Yeah, and then you "ally" yourselves with other races, but hate them at the same time.... And you kill people instead of paying them the money that is rightfully theirs, and you think that all the land is rightfully yours.

Human. The other white meat.

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at. Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

Also who do we ally ourselves with while hating them? That's just silly.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

[Shoju]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at. Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

That's why the alliance are attacking horde in the barrens?

Also who do we ally ourselves with while hating them? That's just silly.

Pretty early on in the Human questing experience during TBC/Wrath (around 3.0 I decided to try a human) there were quests early on that talked about the disdain for dwarwf / gnomes and their presence in SW / Being allied with them. I don't remember where the quests were, but I know that my human didn't live past 30 (I didn't like their animations and bulk at all) so it was before that somewhere in Human starting land / redridge / stormwind / duskwood, Since I killed him when I just Couldn't bother going back to STV on another character.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

Its kind of like the "most trolls comment" and meant purely in jest. Like almost all my human hating comments I drop when you are around and there is a discussion going on about it.

Honestly, The fabio proportions and rigid "My G.I. Joes moved better than that when I was 9" animations that really make me hate humans.

I mean, I wish you could see my DK standing on my armory page in all his glory instead of bent in that silly position. He is menacing, and cool looking, and just so different looking than trolls from any other fantasy setting, with REALLY cool lore (even if a little overdone and /beaten with a stick to death) Heck, I wish I could defect and join the Zandalari and unite the troll races.

[Sabindeus]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at. Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

That's why the alliance are attacking horde in the barrens?

Yep. That whole conflict started in Ashenvale.

Also who do we ally ourselves with while hating them? That's just silly.

Pretty early on in the Human questing experience during TBC/Wrath (around 3.0 I decided to try a human) there were quests early on that talked about the disdain for dwarwf / gnomes and their presence in SW / Being allied with them. I don't remember where the quests were, but I know that my human didn't live past 30 (I didn't like their animations and bulk at all) so it was before that somewhere in Human starting land / redridge / stormwind / duskwood, Since I killed him when I just Couldn't bother going back to STV on another character.

I admit I don't know which quests you're referring to, but you can't take idle comments from one Human to be indicative of the entire race's attitude! Dwarves and gnomes are fine. I'm happy to call them my allies.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

Its kind of like the "most trolls comment" and meant purely in jest. Like almost all my human hating comments I drop when you are around and there is a discussion going on about it.

Honestly, The fabio proportions and rigid "My G.I. Joes moved better than that when I was 9" animations that really make me hate humans.

I mean, I wish you could see my DK standing on my armory page in all his glory instead of bent in that silly position. He is menacing, and cool looking, and just so different looking than trolls from any other fantasy setting, with REALLY cool lore (even if a little overdone and /beaten with a stick to death) Heck, I wish I could defect and join the Zandalari and unite the troll races.

Similarly.

Honestly at this point I am so used to the human animations, but honestly ALL the original vanilla races look dated at this point, and Human was the first.

Also I played Human exclusively in Warcraft 2. That takes dedication! Especially considering how powerful Bloodlust was vs Heal.

[Shathus]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

Psh, they have a racial called Every Man for Himself. Sounds to me like they care more about themselves and their survival than others, pretty selfish imo

fwiw, I only have 1 alliance character (DK so I never played through starting areas, etc) and it's a dwarf, but if I ever faction changed for some reason, it would def be a dwarf paladin.

[halabar]

Well, speaking as a recent defector...

Having seen the actions of the Stormwind leadership prior to, during, and after the Cataclysm, I was appalled at the treatment of their own people, displaced citizens being forced outside the city, while they can't even deal with the traitors within their own ranks. The dwarven leadership has taken a dark turn as well bringing Moria back into the fold, and the ineptitude of the gnomes is clear.

Meanwhile, Garrosh is doing his thing, and he can't, or won't, snuff that treacherous Sylvanis once and for all.. twiddling his fangs while she spreads the plague unabated..

.. to think I became an Orc. One can only hope better leadership will emerge.

But the forsaken.. nothing good can come of them. They should be dealt with.. like any disease.

[Holyblaze]

Humans are the best race. They aren't racist or greedy or anything of that sort. All we Humans want is the land that is rightfully ours.

Also Trolls are terrible because they hunted humans for food before the humans and elves teamed up to kill them all.

THIS!!!!!!!! haha BAM! GO GO

[bldavis]

out of all the horde races, the only ones i like and have respect for are the trolls (due to Vol'Jin's actions when Garrosh took over as warchief...he told thrall he didnt like it but he would still support the horde out of respect for thrall) and goblins...just cause they have no qualms over being themselves..thier greedy coniving goblin selfs

[Shoju]

Vol'jin has more bad ass in one tusk than all the leaders of the alliance combined.

[bldavis]

Vol'jin has more bad ass in one tusk than all the leaders of the alliance combined.

i agree and i play alliance mostly!
that said, i am also annoyed as hell with the return of Moria and the Darkirons

[sahiel]

What? No. There's plenty of land that isn't rightfully ours. It's called Kalimdor. Whole continent. Nothing to scoff at.

*cough*Proudmore*cough* Oh look at that, The Alliance Grand Admiral invading Kalimdor, reaving the coastline and murdering every Orc he could find. If the actions of one of the very top military men of the Alliance can't be laid squarely at their footsteps i'm not sure what can. He even went so far as to establish the castle of Tiragarde Keep so his men would have a base from which to constantly crusade against the Orcs.

Of course the Horde has seen fit to attack our allies who live over there as well, so naturally we have to come to their defense!

If only you'd done the same when the Scourge invaded Quel'thalas perhaps the Blood Elves would never have been driven to the Horde, clearly some allies are more deserving of aid than others to the humans.

As for killing people instead of paying them... eh? Because no horde race has ever had petty internal squabbles? Sure, the Mason's Guild incident was terrible but trying to blame every human everywhere for the actions of Stormwind nobility has got to be more bigoted and racist than any other generalization.

It's good to know there are no other examples of humans betraying their allies or trying to commit racially motivated mass murder. Oh... wait... Grand Marshall Garithos removing all support from the blood elves during the battle to defend Dalaran so they'd be killed... then when some of them they survived regardless (the rest having died defending a human city lets not forget) he ordered them all arrested and executed as traitors... yeah, go humans! Those guys are angels!

Putting aside the amusing back and forth for a moment, I don't think anyone can sensibly look at the Horde or Alliance and say they're "good guys", or try to claim one side is better than the other. Both sides have embraced racists, murderers and people who should rightly have been tried for terrible crimes. Neither side is realistically good or bad, they're far more complicated than that, which is why the lore is so interesting and able to generate such passionate discussions.

[Kelaan]

I don't think anyone can sensibly look at the Horde or Alliance and say they're "good guys", or try to claim one side is better than the other. Both sides have embraced racists, murderers and people who should rightly have been tried for terrible crimes.

Agreed, especially about the interesting lore. When I first made an orc toon, I was like, "Man, that Proudmoore guy's a dick! Can I kill him?" -- and I felt similarly about Varian when I first encountered him (and before I understood his backstory).


It's good to be a Draenei. Aside from their ostracism of the Broken, I can't think of much they've done to be bad. I imagine they'd have gotten along well with the Tauren, had the Argus landed someplace else.