[Holy] Please review this post for the forums

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[Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:32 am

I am planning on posting this on the WoW forums and wanted some review before sending it. Thanks in advance.

------------------------
Tier-12 Holy Paladin Itemization

TL:DR Up-Front Summary.

1. Mastery is significantly behind Spirit, Haste and Critical Strike as a desirable secondary stat for Holy Paladins. It is a bad enough stat that most top Holy Paladins avoid it altogether on their gear.

2. There are currently zero Intellect-based Neck/Cloak/Weapon choices in Tier-12 that pair Spirit with something other than Mastery. All non-Spirit Intellect-based choice in Neck/Cloak/Weapon have Hit on them. There are two 365/378 Ring choices with Spirit/Crit on them but none with Spirit/Haste or Haste/Crit.

3. This results in very substandard gearing choices for Holy Paladins for Tier-12 in the Neck/Cloak/Weapon and, to a lesser extent, Ring slots.

In light of the above summary, I am asking Blizzard to do one of two things:

A. Redesign Holy Paladin Mastery to be something that we desire to have on our gear; just like the other four healing specs.

B. Include Spirit/Haste –OR-- Spirit/Crit –OR-- Haste/Crit item choices in Tier-12 Neck/Cloak/Weapon slots.
==========
Mastery and the Holy Paladin:

Mastery has been an issue with Holy Paladins since its inception. The first version, increased Critical Strike heals, was plagued with the issue that it was very RNG dependant. You had to stack Critical Strike in order to increase the chance that Mastery would do you any good. Luckily, Blizzard agreed with that viewpoint and we got a redesigned Mastery that brought back the old Sacred Shield concept (called Illuminated Healing) of letting the Holy Paladin have a mitigation bubble effect while healing. However, this Mastery is also RNG dependant and often does not implement its full effect.

As currently implemented, Illuminated Healing creates a damage mitigation bubble of 12% of the amount healed plus 1.5% additional for each point of Mastery (179.28 Mastery rating per point) for 15 seconds.

So, a current Holy Paladin with no Mastery rating casts a critical strike Divine Light for 40,000 points healing will place a 4,800 point damage absorbing shield on that target that lasts for 15 seconds. Sounds good, huh?

Reality is that Mastery is not very good for a Holy Paladin for a couple of reasons:

1. The bubbles do not stack. In the above example, a Holy Paladin places a 4,800 point shield on a raid member. That raid member takes an environmental AoE attack that hits for 4,700 damage and is completely absorbed. The Holy Paladin again heals the raid member . Their new 4,800 point shield DOES NOT TAKE EFFECT because the old shield with 100 points of absorbing capacity is still on the target. The new shield is wasted. Depending on timing, this wasting of a shield happens a lot.

2. The rating conversion values do not value Mastery. To increase their Haste by 1%, the Holy Paladin need 128 Haste rating. To increase their Critical Strike chance by 1%, the Holy Paladin need 179 Critical Strike rating. But 179 Mastery rating grants the Holy Paladin an additional 1.5% value to my shield.

So, again from the above example, 179 points of Haste grants the Holy Paladin: 1.39% faster Haste –OR-- 1.00% increase Critical Strike (which could result in thousands of extra healing) but only an additional 600 points of damage absorption on a 40k heal. So the Illuminated Healing shield goes from being 4,800 points in strength to 5,400 points in strength.

Drawn out further, 1,790 rating points grants a Holy Paladin (before any Diminishing Returns): 13.90% increased Haste –OR-- 10.00% increased Critical Strike but only an additional 6,000 points of damage absorption on the above example. 1,800 points of rating is quite a bit to stack in 359 item level gear or below but yet it’s effect is less than any single heal a Holy Paladin might cast and is on par with the healing done by our 2 point talent Protector of the Innocent.

3. Implementation. Let’s contrast the Holy Paladin Mastery with that of the Holy Priest. A Holy Priest’s Mastery is called Echoes of Light and it adds a Heal over Time to any direct heal cast by the Holy Priest that is equal to 10% of the heal amount plus 1.25% per point of Mastery over 6 seconds.

So, the base amount of Echo of Light is less than Illuminated Healing (10% vs 12%), the increased amount per point of Mastery is less (1.25% vs 1.50%) and the time span in which it is effective is less (6 sec vs 15 sec).

So, based on that, the Illuminated Healing mastery is much superior than Echo of Light, right? Well, not so fast. The difference is that Echo of Light is ALWAYS ON. As long as a toon is not at full health, this Mastery will always implement its full effect. Priest cast a 40k heal with only base Mastery, the target gets healed for an additional 4k over 6 seconds. No questions asked. This is the same with Resto Druid and Resto Shaman mastery. As long as the target is not at full health, their Mastery will run for 100% of its effect.

The Holy Paladin mastery is only effective IF the target gets damaged again within 15 seconds. While this will happen on a tank, this might often not happen on anyone else. Also, as stated above, there is also a chance that a new bubble will not be implemented anyway if there is any remaining amount left (even 1 point of absorption) left on an older bubble.

4. Design. Discipline Priests are the kings (and queens) of damage mitigation. While they also heal, they absorb more damage than any other healing class by design. Their Mastery reflects this as it increases the potency of their shields. Holy Priests, Resto Druids and Resto Shaman are pure healers. Their Mastery increases their healing throughput.

Holy Paladins, however, are apparently the schizophrenics. We have zero damage reduction or absorption abilities….except for our Mastery. So, instead of a throughput increase like the Holy Priests, Druids or Shaman, we are a hybrid who heals people and then, very weakly, absorbs some small amount of damage. Why? Because at one point in our lives we had a talent called Sacred Shield? I don’t see the justification.

============
So, Mastery is not a strong stat for Holy Paladins and thus they are much more desirous to have Spirit, Haste and Critical Strike on their gear as secondary stats.

For Tier-12 Intellect Plate, Blizzard appears to agree with us. For Tier-12, not a single piece has Mastery on it!

Head = Spirit / Haste
Shoulders = Spirit / Critical Strike
Chest = Spirit / Critical Strike
Gloves = Haste / Critical Strike (crafted off-Tier gloves have the prized Spirit / Haste combo)
Legs = Spirit / Haste

For off-Tier Intellect Plate, only 3 of 11 intellect plate pieces have Mastery on them. So, at the very “worse,” a Tier-12 Holy Paladin could only have Mastery in 3 out of 8 plate slots (head, shoulders, wrists).

However, for the non-Plate gear slots, itemization for Holy Paladins gets MUCH worse….and that is the point of this whole post.
=============
Tier-12 Necks: There are zero Intellect necks that do not have either Mastery or Hit on them. The itemization for necks goes: (365) Haste/Mastery, (378) Spirit/Mastery, Spirit/Mastery, Haste/Mastery, Critical Strike/Hit. I know Mastery is a great secondary stat for every healer except Holy Paladins and they will be THRILLED with the Spirit/Mastery combinations. Holy Paladins are not thrilled.

Tier-12 Cloaks: Again, there are zero Intellect Cloaks that do not have either Mastery or Hit on them. The itemization for cloaks goes: (365) Haste/Mastery, (378) Spirit/Mastery, Critical Strike/Mastery, Haste/Hit. I know Mastery is a great secondary stat for every healer except Holy Paladins and they will be THRILLED with the Spirit/Mastery combination. Holy Paladins are not thrilled.

Tier-12 Weapons: Blizzard, you are too cruel. Here is the itemization for Intellect weapons in Tier-12 usable by Holy Paladins: (365) Spirit/Mastery, (384) Spirit/Haste. WAIT! A Spirit weapon with Haste?!? Outstanding! Oh wait, item level 384?!? That means it drops from Rags and that 90% of WoW Holy Paladins will probably never see it since the ability to clear end bosses of raiding instances for many guilds is limited.

So, in Tier-11 the only non-Mastery level 359 weapons for Holy Paladins were available from instance end bosses: Cho’gall or Nef. In Tier-12, the only 378 or better weapon available for Holy Paladins is available from the instance end boss, Rags.

I cannot even begin to tell you how disappointed I was for Tier-11 that they provided a BOE Staff that was BiS for all the other healing specs but yet placed the only non-Mastery weapons available for Holy Paladins on the instance end bosses. Just cruel, Blizzard.

[EDIT: Just this morning, Blizzard has apparently added an item level 378 Intellect based AXE! Holy Paladins and Resto/Elemental Shaman everywhere are rejoicing! Of course, they itemized it with Spirit/Mastery even though there are Staves and Daggers available for the Shaman elsewhere. RAGE!!!!!!]

Tier-12 Rings: Finally, a non-Plate intellect piece of gear that pairs Spirit with something other than Mastery. The itemization for rings goes: (365) Spirit/Crit, Haste/Hit, Crit/Mastery, (378) Spirt/Mastery, Spirit/Crit, Mastery/Hit. So, a Holy Paladin who is lucky can get a ring combination with (365) Spirit/Crit and (378) Spirit/Crit and avoid the dreaded Mastery rating. However, why are there zero Intellect rings with Haste on them for healers? The only ring with Haste has Hit on it.
==============
TL:DR

Blizzard appears to agree that Mastery is a sub-standard secondary stat for Holy Paladins and stripped it completely off their Tier-12 gear and limited it greatly on their Tier-12 non-Tier Intellect plate choices.

However, they then almost completely failed to give neck/cloak/ring/weapon choices that did not include either Mastery or Hit.

So, my request to Blizzard is:

1. Fix Holy Paladin Mastery so that it is a desirable secondary stat on par with Haste and Critical Strike.

2. Give Tier-12 itemization choices in the neck/cloak/ring/weapon slots that does not include either Mastery or Hit.

Thanks in advance for any constructive comments.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:14 am

Overall, I think its probably a pretty fair post.

The difference is that Echo of Light is ALWAYS ON. As long as a toon is not at full health, this Mastery will always implement its full effect. Priest cast a 40k heal with only base Mastery, the target gets healed for an additional 4k over 6 seconds. No questions asked. This is the same with Resto Druid and Resto Shaman mastery. As long as the target is not at full health, their Mastery will run for 100% of its effect.


I am not that familiar with the details of non-pally healers. If a priest heals a target a second time within 6 secs, do they get a second HoT or what happens? I say this as you specifically mentioned the Holy Pally shield thing.

Also on the Holy Pally shield, a possible mitigation of lost bubble would be to replace an existing bubble anytime a new heal would put up a bigger bubble/shield. Making shields additive is simply not an option as personally I like to build HoPo prior to pull by dropping DL on my beacon, and Holy Shock on whomever. If these shields were additive then I could potentially build a 100k bubble on a tank prior to pull. Simple replacement can be an issue, because then if I drop a 40k DL and follow with a 8k non crit holy shock, the DL bubble is wasted.

Holy Paladins, however, are apparently the schizophrenics. We have zero damage reduction or absorption abilities….except for our Mastery


I understand the general sentiment, but we do have Hand of Sacrifice, although with Divine Bubble being only 8 secs, this is more risky than it once was. I have died on H-Chimaeron10 because I did a bubble-sac on the tank and died at the end of fued when bubble was gone, but sac was still up.

Aura Mastery can also be a great damage reduction ability when timed right.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Flex » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:02 am

Hrobertgar wrote:I am not that familiar with the details of non-pally healers. If a priest heals a target a second time within 6 secs, do they get a second HoT or what happens? I say this as you specifically mentioned the Holy Pally shield thing.


Echo Rolls so they never get lost healing.

Also isn't a smaller bubble from Illuminated Healing replaced by a larger one but a larger one is never replaced by a smaller one? That's how it seems to work when I mess around with Holy.

a couple log snipets.

3 refreshes of the Mastery bubble without any fading each increasing in value.

Code: Select all
[01:24:42.439] Grubba gains Illuminated Healing from Khayden (Remaining: 1110)
[01:24:43.644] Grubba's Illuminated Healing is refreshed by Khayden (Remaining: 1563)
[01:24:46.907] Grubba's Illuminated Healing is refreshed by Khayden (Remaining: 3761)


Here's the entire log.

Code: Select all
***[01:24:42.032] Khayden Holy Shock Grubba +7676
[01:24:42.032] Grubba gains 25 energy from Grubba's Relentless Strikes
[01:24:42.035] Grubba gains Echo of Light from Oblate
[01:24:42.094] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
***[01:24:42.439] Grubba gains Illuminated Healing from Khayden (Remaining: 1110)
[01:24:42.441] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:42.837] Khayden casts Word of Glory on Grubba
***[01:24:42.996] Khayden Word of Glory Grubba +10807
[01:24:43.095] Oblate Echo of Light Grubba +50
[01:24:43.244] Grubba's Moderate Insight is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:43.244] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:43.411] Oblate Flash Heal Grubba +*24771*
[01:24:43.642] Oblate Renew Grubba +3205
***[01:24:43.644] Grubba's Illuminated Healing is refreshed by Khayden (Remaining: 1563)
[01:24:43.644] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:44.043] Oblate Echo of Light Grubba +49
[01:24:44.044] Grubba's Echo of Light is refreshed by Oblate
[01:24:44.044] Grubba's Renew is refreshed by Oblate
[01:24:44.044] Grubba gains Inspiration from Oblate
[01:24:44.454] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:44.454] Grubba's Moderate Insight is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:45.170] Oblate Echo of Light Grubba +781
[01:24:45.249] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:45.296] Grubba gains 15 energy from Grubba's Combat Potency
[01:24:45.638] Grubba's Slice and Dice is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:45.715] Grubba's River of Death is refreshed by Grubba
[01:24:46.040] Oblate Echo of Light Grubba +780
[01:24:46.103] Kunillia's Elemental Oath fades from Grubba
[01:24:46.103] Grubba gains Rampage from Draigen
***[01:24:46.161] Khayden Divine Light Grubba +21275 (O: 4721)
[01:24:46.161] Oblate Renew Grubba +0 (O: 3205)
[01:24:46.821] Oblate Binding Heal Grubba +0 (O: 12908)
***[01:24:46.907] Grubba's Illuminated Healing is refreshed by Khayden (Remaining: 3761)


Hrobertgar wrote:I understand the general sentiment, but we do have Hand of Sacrifice

Aura Mastery can also be a great damage reduction ability when timed right.


Two very strong ones that are silly to overlook.

This is the same with Resto Druid and Resto Shaman mastery. As long as the target is not at full health, their Mastery will run for 100% of its effect.


This is false. The lower the target is the more effect from the mastery those classes will have. I think targets need to be sub 30% health for them to have mastery operate at 100% effectiveness.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:26 am

Flex wrote: Also isn't a smaller bubble from Illuminated Healing replaced by a larger one but a larger one is never replaced by a smaller one? That's how it seems to work when I mess around with Holy.


I don't believe this is true. If that were the case, then the Holy Paladin Mastery would be MUCH better than it is. I dont' think there is any overwriting of the Illuminated Healing bubble.

Flex wrote:
Hrobertgar wrote:I understand the general sentiment, but we do have Hand of Sacrifice

Aura Mastery can also be a great damage reduction ability when timed right.


Two very strong ones that are silly to overlook.


Two points:

1. Hand of Sacrifice is NOT a damage absorber or reducer. It is a damage transfer. The same amount of damage goes out; it is just split between the Hand target and the Paladin with most of the transfer being healed by Protector of the Innocent.

2. Aura Mastery is not a damager absorber or reducer. It can be a DPS increaser (Ret aura). It can be a silence breaker (Concentration aura). It MIGHT be a damage reducer (Devotion aura or Resistance aura).

Perhaps I am nit-picking; I will grant you that, besides Mastery, Holy Paladins can reduce damage via Aura Mastery with Devotion or Resistance aura up. I will so modify my main post.

Flex wrote:
This is the same with Resto Druid and Resto Shaman mastery. As long as the target is not at full health, their Mastery will run for 100% of its effect.


This is false. The lower the target is the more effect from the mastery those classes will have. I think targets need to be sub 30% health for them to have mastery operate at 100% effectiveness.


Perhaps it is semantics; but I think my statement is true from the viewpoint that I wrote it. A Shaman or Druid will ALWAYS have their Mastery active on a heal. If the target is at 99% health, the Mastery is still active, just tiny. If the target is at 85% health, then the Mastery is still active, just a little bit bigger. If the target is at 25% health, then the Mastery is active and at 100% strength.

However, a Holy Paladin's Mastery is 100% useless if:

- The target does not take damage in the next 15 seconds; or
- The target already has an Illuminated Healing bubble on him of any strength.

Cheers,
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Flex » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:35 am

Check my logs I edited in to my first post, They clearly show overwriting weaker shields with bigger shields.

Two points:

1. Hand of Sacrifice is NOT a damage absorber or reducer. It is a damage transfer. The same amount of damage goes out; it is just split between the Hand target and the Paladin with most of the transfer being healed by Protector of the Innocent.


Use on the tank during Flame Orders. Profit.

2. Aura Mastery is not a damager absorber or reducer. It can be a DPS increaser (Ret aura). It can be a silence breaker (Concentration aura). It MIGHT be a damage reducer (Devotion aura or Resistance aura).


We cycle DP and AM on Atremedes after breaking his ability during the ground phase. Lessens the damage of his followup unavoidable AoE.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby warden » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:31 am

Remember too, that ALL of the damage transfered from Hand of Sac is magical, regardless of the original source type, and therefore is mitigated by Divine Protection (including glyphed DP). Many holy pallies use a glyphed DP in conjunction with Hand of Sac for this reason. Our holy pallies use this combo to enable the use of Hand of Sac in cases where otherwise it would seem counter-intuative, such as during Electricutes on H Nef or Shadow Orders on H Cho'Gall.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Flex » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:33 am

warden wrote:Remember too, that ALL of the damage transfered from Hand of Sac is magical, regardless of the original source type, and therefore is mitigated by Divine Protection (including glyphed DP).


You're awesome.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby warden » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:41 am

Flex wrote:
warden wrote:Remember too, that ALL of the damage transfered from Hand of Sac is magical, regardless of the original source type, and therefore is mitigated by Divine Protection (including glyphed DP).


You're awesome.


Hey, it was a big discovery for me :P I wrecked myself running out to Sac our add tank one night during an electricute and bubble wasn't quite off CD yet... and then one of our holy pallies enlightened me to this little piece of information :)
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Levantine » Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:07 am

Don't get me wrong, I love Echoes of Light in the right circumstances it's fantastic, but it's also heaps fucking good at overhealing. I'm not saying HPal mastery isn't shit, because it fair is, but Symbiosis/Harmony, Deep Healing and Shield Discipline don't have the same latent overhealing weakness (i.e. my mastery isn't immediate in effect) in that other healers have the ability to nullify your own personal mastery so I'm not sure comparing them is the best point of attack.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Thu Jun 02, 2011 7:52 am

Excellent point, Lev.

Since it appears that my understanding of the other healer Masteries are weaker than I thought, I will take out that comparison.

Thanks all for the comments. I hopefully will get this on the boards today so that it can be ignored! :)

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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Kedon » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:57 am

I think this wasn't mentioned. From a post still on the MMO-Champion front page.

Holy

Illuminated Healing (Mastery) has been adjusted slightly so that if a paladin refreshes an existing copy of his or her own Illuminated Healing on a target, the new absorption amount will be added into the old absorption amount and the duration will be reset. The total absorption created can never exceed 1/3 of the casting paladin's health.


Also yes, mastery was changed in 4.1 so that a weaker shield will not overwrite a stronger one. A stealthy buff, and not a very big one, but still. Most people noticed a relatively big jump in the total absorb amounts after this. Roughly doubled my absorbs, mastery has been somewhere around 10% of all my healing after this, obviously less on some fights and more on others.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Kelaan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:13 am

It does seem like a big flavor difference that it prevents damage (which may never happen), though.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:39 pm

It does seem like a big flavor difference that it prevents damage (which may never happen), though.


The priest bubble also prevents damage, but it doesn't require a massive investment of itemization points to produce a decent shield.

The extension of pally bubble from 8 secs to 15 secs (also 4.1) helped a little, and the stacking bubble (4.2) will help a little more, but i'll have to experience it before I feel too excited about it. I mean the tanks are generally taking consistent damage so its rare that I would get to stack more than a couple spells worth, other than on the initial pull with a pre-pull bubble.

Interestingly, part of me thinks that if the bubble were more meaningfull it might affect spell choice. Certainly it could minimize requirement for FoL if you knew what to expect and could prepare for it. Whether or not it would be enough to make HL attractive is another question.

I am also curious to see how other spells like Holy Radiance perform with a stacking bubble and the shorter CD. IFF HR provides a stacking bubble, AND it still lasts 15 secs, then potentially a pally could hit HR (10 sec duration) wait the remaining 10 CD and hit it again, all the while building a raid bubble on EVERYONE for a pending event. That would be something.
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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby sherck » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:39 am

Hrobertgar wrote:I am also curious to see how other spells like Holy Radiance perform with a stacking bubble and the shorter CD. IFF HR provides a stacking bubble, AND it still lasts 15 secs, then potentially a pally could hit HR (10 sec duration) wait the remaining 10 CD and hit it again, all the while building a raid bubble on EVERYONE for a pending event. That would be something.


Right now on 4.2 ptr, I don't think the following heals trigger our Mastery:

Beacon of Light (funneled heal; if you heal the Beacon you will get a shield from the direct heal)
Protector of the Innocent
Guardian of Ancient Kings
Holy Radiance

So, shields on everyone is not happening right now.

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Re: [Holy] Please review this post for the forums

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:35 pm

Yea, in my raid last night I specifically looked for bubbles off HR and did not see it; ah well. Its just that I always notice it in those special cases where I use flashlight, so was figuring HR would as well. Usually if I'm going for HR I am too busy healing to check for who is getting bubbles from direct heals vs who is in range of HR to be certain of the source.

I guess I could finish farming Uld25 for the Legendary and get mass bubbles that way, just for kicks.
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