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Game of Thrones

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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 24, 2011 1:20 am

Was it just me, or did the champion with the shield in Tyrion's trial by combat duel seem to really just suck at fighting?

Edit: I think that's actually been a trend of what I've seen of the series so far actually. The swordplay and combat in general is just kind of...lackluster.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby cerwillis » Tue May 24, 2011 7:09 am

Brekkie wrote:Was it just me, or did the champion with the shield in Tyrion's trial by combat duel seem to really just suck at fighting?

Edit: I think that's actually been a trend of what I've seen of the series so far actually. The swordplay and combat in general is just kind of...lackluster.

The presence of armor in the books is a very important factor in a number of fights, as is the regard or lack thereof for honor and respect for your opponent. In the case of this fight, it was to show that the contest was between Yoren, a seasoned man of the Night's Watch and a proud Knight of the Vale that had probably never seen combat outside of a tournament. The huge shield and clumsy movements were perhaps heavy-handed, but I believe intended.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 24, 2011 7:16 am

Bronn, a talented sellsword, not Yoren. Yoren went ahead to King's Landing to warn Ned about the Imp's capture.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Sabindeus » Tue May 24, 2011 8:29 am

cerwillis wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Was it just me, or did the champion with the shield in Tyrion's trial by combat duel seem to really just suck at fighting?

Edit: I think that's actually been a trend of what I've seen of the series so far actually. The swordplay and combat in general is just kind of...lackluster.

The presence of armor in the books is a very important factor in a number of fights, as is the regard or lack thereof for honor and respect for your opponent. In the case of this fight, it was to show that the contest was between Yoren, a seasoned man of the Night's Watch and a proud Knight of the Vale that had probably never seen combat outside of a tournament. The huge shield and clumsy movements were perhaps heavy-handed, but I believe intended.


exactly this
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Aerron » Tue May 24, 2011 8:35 am

I didn't get to see this weekend's episode, so I don't know if this was spelled out in the show or not:

In that fight, Lady Lysa demands that her champion wear the armor and bear the sword of the fallen Jon Arryn, to honor him. In the book, there's some good discussion about how the armor doesnt' really fit him, and the sword was a ceremonial blade never really intended for combat. He fights his equipment even more than he fights Bronn.

But Lysa's freakin' nuts and tossing ppl out a window, so no one is willing to nay-say her, so dude wears the armor and uses the sword and gets his ass kicked. If she'd allowed him to use his own armor and pick his own weapon, might have been a different outcome.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 24, 2011 9:00 am

I just read the book again recently, and I believe a comment is made about how ornate his armor is compared to Bronn's practical gear, but not that it wasn't his own armor. The sword was indeed Jon Arryn's, though, and unfamiliar to him.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby cerwillis » Tue May 24, 2011 10:25 am

Doh'! How did I forget Bronn?
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 24, 2011 12:16 pm

Even so, he was stumbling around and body-slamming into walls as if he couldn't see through his visor and tripping over stuff, and the mercenary was barely even doing anything. He parried like 3 times and pranced about a little bit and mostly just watched the other guy make a fool of himself and almost hack casual bystanders by accident.

Good point about the shield though. Normally a shield is a huge advantage but I remember thinking about how it was foolish to use a normal style kite shield, since those are designed for a mounted horseman in order to protect the left leg and are too unwieldy to use on foot.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue May 24, 2011 1:13 pm

He actually couldn't see through his visor - it's a narrow slit, and Bronn (in the book) uses that to his advantage.

The people in Lysa's court, Ser Vardis included, aren't much good at doing anything but try to please her in the hopes that they can marry the current Regent of the Vale.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 24, 2011 10:39 pm

I have a helmet like that. In fact, I have a full suit of armor like that. And a shield like his. Those helmets are not that difficult to see through. The main way your vision is restricted is the ability to look downward at your own feet, but side and front vision is barely hindered at all.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Paxen » Wed May 25, 2011 3:35 am

Bronn is a very experienced fighter who knows how to use every little detail to his advantage (that's only shown later in the books, though, when he prefers to watch men practice fighting rather than ogle girls), while I guess Ser Vardis is perhaps meant to have little real combat experience, mostly limited to tourneys and not used to fighting lightly armored opponents that actually know what they're doing. I think drawing out the fight against an opponent with more armor is a valid strategy, the way I've heard it is that while armor doesn't actually hamper movement much at all, it does tire you out pretty quickly.

Of course, my presumptions break down when you consider that Ser Vardis should have been fighting the wild men in the mountains a lot - lightly armored but skilled fighters shouldn't be anything new to him.

Edit: what I dislike most on the show is that they use a lot of stage-fighting instead of trying to make the fights more real. It might make the fights more boring and confusing, but it would have fit the tone of the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Brekkie » Wed May 25, 2011 1:27 pm

what I dislike most on the show is that they use a lot of stage-fighting instead of trying to make the fights more real. It might make the fights more boring and confusing, but it would have fit the tone of the show.


THATS IT! I think you managed to lay a finger on what was bothering me. They really are doing the whole stage combat thing, with very deliberate, over exaggerated swings and parries at a slow enough pace for the audience to keep up, rather than gritty "real" fighting style which I think would fit more with the way the show is done.
Probably a directing issue, or due to the background of the fighting choreographer.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby cerwillis » Wed May 25, 2011 2:00 pm

Brekkie,
I would be curious to know which movies/shows you would give as examples of "getting it right" as far as armored sword combat goes. One of the most epic examples I can think of is 1981's Excalibur. I think they get it pretty close in that one, where any skilled combat is done in the first minute, everything after that is just trying to keep your feet under you and hoping to land the big blow that knocks your opponent off balance.

I didn't get the stage-fighting feel that you guys saw in GoT, but I'll admit I only watched it once.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby Paxen » Wed May 25, 2011 2:03 pm

I was reading up on this over at The ARMA (renaissance fighting revival guys) and some dude there recommended the final duel from Rob Roy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27M5KWI_q50

(Well, they didn't really like the end of the duel, but the hero must win.)

edit: that's obviously unarmored sword combat. I'll try to look around more, mostly because I want to see it myself.
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Re: Game of Thrones

Postby cerwillis » Wed May 25, 2011 2:14 pm

Paxen wrote:I was reading up on this over at The ARMA (renaissance fighting revival guys) and some dude there recommended the final duel from Rob Roy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27M5KWI_q50

(Well, they didn't really like the end of the duel, but the hero must win.)

edit: that's obviously unarmored sword combat. I'll try to look around more, mostly because I want to see it myself.
Heh, yeah I was going to see you that and raise you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7zvffHu_wo
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