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[25] Sinestra

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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Fri May 20, 2011 4:18 am

Lol, like if consecration would make a differance xD

But like psiven sais, they dont come down all 5 together.
If your looking at the boss, 3 spawn from the left, and they spawn first with the furthest one from sinestra beeing even faster.
Then one coming pretty much from behind sinestra, and the last one comes somewhere from the right.
My "usual" way of picking them up is that i throw judgement on the very first one, then the other 2 from the left actually activate almost ontop of eachother, if your timing is good, you can get an avengers shield on both of them, before they land even.
That doesnt always work tho, but we have a paladin who uses righteous fury on, so i just use Righteous defense on one of them, and i get all 3.
If one would go for someone else, at that point i still have my single target taunt, and my judgement/AS is coming off CD pretty much at that time.

In p3, the same "way" of picking them up works, but usually i just stand on the paladin with RF (who is standing on the meele) and once they come, use hammer once, then RD if theres anything left on him. One GCD, and they are all yours (9/10 times for me)
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Newsom » Fri May 20, 2011 5:28 am

Cool, thanks for the replies! I'll try to convince one of our Holy paladins to put RF on. :)
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby baff » Fri May 20, 2011 5:35 am

I do something similar to treck, but with a couple of differences I found to be huge in making whelp pick up really easy.

Basically, like was mentioned, each wave of 5 comes in two parts. First there are three, and then another two. We have all of our healers in the same area, near the location of where the whelps become active. I judge one to make sure it comes to me, and then use HotR + holy wrath to get the other two. It works like a charm. For the second part of two whelps, they both come from the same side, so AS hits them both. I still have my taunts available if stuff goes wrong.

I do use a gear setup which is hit/exp capped against lvl 85 (the lvl of the whelps). Healers have no real issues in healing me. The only annoying part of the fight is when our resto druid runs due to an orb and grabs aggro on whelps which never get in range of me. I usually start chasing if that happens, trying to RD off the druid. Like Treck mentioned, a holy pally with RF up could negate this problem.

The key thing in my view is using HotR. If you won't have it miss it works like a charm.

Consecrate is VERY VERY week for snap aggro. Holy wrath is sometimes not strong enough, especially after some AoE healing was done cause of a flame breath. The only reason I use holy wrath as I stated earlier is in case I used my HotR too early, and a whelp was out of range for it.

As a side note, glyphed salv on the healer that gives you trouble would be very helpful for those 10 seconds (which should be enough time), but I have never used it.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby baff » Fri May 20, 2011 5:47 am

Though I should add a tip that we use to make the final part much much easier.

I pick up the whelps on my own for the entire fight. in phase 3, I pick up two sets, then ranged kill all 10 of them in the back of the room. I then move to melee and the entire raid blows the second spawns up. I then pick up the third wave, and we kill them before the fourth wave spawns (range kill in the back, move to melee, everyone kills second spawn).

Now I bubble!!

Pick up the fourth wave and OT them. By the time the fifth wave pops is about the time the awesome-we-are-so-leet buff is gone. This is when all of our DKs pop their armies so army offtanks the whelps for a bit (I'm not gaining stacks of the shadow debuff in the meantime). I also make sure to build aggro on the fifth wave as the army tanks them (and sometimes they like to go to healers before the army picks them up, so need to be careful).

Once the army dies, I begin rotating my CDs which are usually off CD by now. If a sixth wave happens to spawn, I just pick it up. Its only happened to us once when we had a few dps die early cause of orbs.

Should mention that on our very first kill we we popped army after the fifth spawn (so I had aggro on them all), and I just ran to the back of the room to buy some time for the raid. Here is a video of this kill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgdQWGuWtlY.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby inthedrops » Sun May 22, 2011 7:48 am

I don't recommend having your paladin use RF, unless you're really stuggling. It'll take a ton of DPS on your part to have them glued to you if they turn on RF. That can end up causing other problems when it comes time to DPS them.

There is a VERY specific pattern to the whelps, you just have to find the rotation that works best for you. Keep in mind however that depending on what healer the whelps run to, and which direction that healer from when avoiding orbs, you may have to change your plan on the fly.

Here's how I do it. Assume you're facing the boss when I give these details:

1. I taunt and judge the very first whelp that comes from the left. Taunt is REALLY important because judge often isn't enough threat on it's own. Plus it can miss a lot.

2. Two whelps will come from the right, one from roughly behind the boss, and one from roughly behind you. They arrive at almost the same time. I wait until they both get close and then I Hammer them. The most important part about this is to REALLY make sure that the one you have targeted of the two is in front of you. A common mistake I made early on is that they'd fly "through and behind me" such that spamming my Hammer key did nothing. If for some reason my Hammer misses, I'll often AoE taunt these

3. Finally, two whelps will come from the left side of the room. These start out separated a bit, but usually converge together. I save my shield for these, but you have to be PATIENT. Don't throw your shield until they are close enough together that your shield will hit both of them.

Usage of Holy Wrath is always my "OH CRAP SOMETHING MISSED" last resort ability. I don't use it as part of the Whelp gathering rotation.

Here's what can go wrong:
1. On the second set of whelps, if healers are running from orbs, it's possible that you and the healers go different directions such that you're out of range and not able to use your hammer to get them. This is when you have to swap Hammer for Shield. Throw your Shield at these instead, and IMMEDIATELY start running to where the final two Whelps come in at, wait for them to get close as before, but Hammer them instead.

One other tip, is that I always save up three holy power for when the first whelp is almost coming. I pop Inquisition, drop a consecrate where I think the healers will stand, and then start going into the routine above. I think using Inquisition helps a TON. Without it, there's more change that you'll already have lost agro on the first three whelps while you're dealing with that last two (healer threat is freaking NUTS, especially in P3!!)

When Whelps are being DPS'd, I use Inquisition full time as well. It's a huge DPS boost.

Hope this helps!
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Sun May 22, 2011 11:15 am

inthedrops wrote:I don't recommend having your paladin use RF, unless you're really stuggling. It'll take a ton of DPS on your part to have them glued to you if they turn on RF. That can end up causing other problems when it comes time to DPS them.


Actually, a hammer is all you need to get them off the paladin.
The paladin isnt there to make threat on them, he is just there to guide them towards one and the same position.
And as long as every other ability you use is hammer, its no problem keeping aggro from the healer imo.

Our paladin runs with RF up for the whole fight, and since the adds dont reach him all at once anyway, some adds occationally hits him between the hammer rotations, and if some for some reason sticks on him, both taunts should be more than enough to get them back.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Sun May 22, 2011 2:07 pm

Treck wrote:Our paladin runs with RF up for the whole fight, and since the adds dont reach him all at once anyway, some adds occationally hits him between the hammer rotations, and if some for some reason sticks on him, both taunts should be more than enough to get them back.


Yeah, we use a RF paladin also, and it works great. It allows my Righteous Defense (if I even need it) to get 3 whelps off of him at once.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby sybreed » Sun May 22, 2011 6:06 pm

My guild has killed Sinestra four times now, and for the past two weeks, we wipe at phase 2 because a Twilight Spitecaller gained Indomitable from a stun/silence/etc..

I'm constantly getting blamed for causing it via Avenger's Shield but I've never had any issues with it prior to these past two weeks.

Has anyone had an issue with Avenger's Shield silence vs Twilight Spitecallers?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Sun May 22, 2011 6:18 pm

i thought you couldnt even "interrupt" that.
Get an addon that tells you if youve interrupted smth, then you will know for sure.
Cuz indomitable is the ability they cast to get out of the stunn, and they dont get stunned by an interrupt so they would have no need to use Indomitable.
And im fairly certain their cast has the "not interruptable" layout to it on my screen.

Assuming your not using glyphed holy wrath?
That would be my first guess.
Otherwise it is possible that the add might cast Indomidable to get out of the daze AS causes, so maybe run without that glyph aswell.
And its about as farfetched as the daze, but maybe they cast Indomidable if they are silenced? maybe that "breaks" it free from the silence to keep on casting?

If none of those are the causes, its not your fault. (unless your using HoJ/seal of stunn whatever on them)

Edit: Some wowhead comment said they used it if they got dazed. so id say try without the daze glyph.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby sybreed » Sun May 22, 2011 6:44 pm

Treck wrote:i thought you couldnt even "interrupt" that.
Get an addon that tells you if youve interrupted smth, then you will know for sure.
Cuz indomitable is the ability they cast to get out of the stunn, and they dont get stunned by an interrupt so they would have no need to use Indomitable.
And im fairly certain their cast has the "not interruptable" layout to it on my screen.

Assuming your not using glyphed holy wrath?
That would be my first guess.
Otherwise it is possible that the add might cast Indomidable to get out of the daze AS causes, so maybe run without that glyph aswell.
And its about as farfetched as the daze, but maybe they cast Indomidable if they are silenced? maybe that "breaks" it free from the silence to keep on casting?

If none of those are the causes, its not your fault. (unless your using HoJ/seal of stunn whatever on them)

Edit: Some wowhead comment said they used it if they got dazed. so id say try without the daze glyph.


They're immune to interrupts, so I knew it couldn't be the interrupt part of Avenger's Shield. I was wondering about the silence portion of it, but there's never been an issue with it on successful attempts.

I don't have Rebuke or Hammer of Justice on my bar and I never use Seal of Stuns. I do not use Holy Wrath or AS daze glyph.

Still sorting through logs, so hopefully I can find the correct reason for us sucking at Sinestra.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Rhiannon » Sun May 22, 2011 7:49 pm

I see you're using hibernate to interrupt. I don't know if it's due to lag or something, but it seems like sometimes the hibernate's not breaking instantly like it should. The indomitable mechanic as far as I recall is that if the mob is incapacitated in any way for more than <some short period of time> (0.5 seconds?), it'll trigger Indomitable, and stuff like gouge, repentance, fears etc should all be breaking instantly as the mob's getting nuked and so won't trigger Indomitable. I don't see why hibernate would be any different, but looking at a few examples:

[20:35:21.950] Twilight Spitecaller afflicted by Hibernate from Solique

...about 50k damage hitting spitecaller...

[20:35:22.464] Solique's Hibernate fades from Twilight Spitecaller
[20:35:22.464] Twilight Spitecaller gains Indomitable from Twilight Spitecaller


[20:35:40.797] Twilight Spitecaller afflicted by Hibernate from Solique

another 50k damage

[20:35:41.455] Solique's Hibernate fades from Twilight Spitecaller
[20:35:41.455] Twilight Spitecaller gains Indomitable from Twilight Spitecaller

Not sure why you'd be using hibernate when you have two rogues anyway, but I'm fairly certain that's what's proccing it.

(edit: apparently this is a reasonably common approach, I hadn't heard of it before though. But it looks to be buggy at the moment - we've not had any issues using gouge for what it's worth.)

Further edit: actually checked our logs for this week's kill, and gouge is lasting just as long as hibernate in your logs, with no triggering of indomitable, so I'm really not sure. My first suggestion would be to try something other than hibernate and see if you still get the issue, looking at the debuffs the spitecaller's getting in your attempts it looks like the only possibility.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby PsiVen » Mon May 23, 2011 6:51 am

We haven't had any issues with it until P3 starts, when the ranged turn and shoot the Spitecaller. Something from them (Slow from Nether Vortex was our guess) was triggering it,

It can be dispelled as an Enrage, so we just started having our hunter watch for it and tranq shot as needed.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Arianne » Wed May 25, 2011 7:40 pm

I'm trying to drop the first set of whelps so that they don't respawn (doing a 5/5/5 method) and it seems like even when the pools are far apart, there are 1-3 respawns. Any idea what's going on?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby inthedrops » Thu May 26, 2011 7:47 am

Arianne wrote:I'm trying to drop the first set of whelps so that they don't respawn (doing a 5/5/5 method) and it seems like even when the pools are far apart, there are 1-3 respawns. Any idea what's going on?


The thing that causes a whelp to respawn is when one dies on top of a puddle. Perhaps more than one whelp is dying before you can move them away from the puddle?

With your strategy, it'll be important to kill them one by one such that you move out of the prior puddle before the next whelp dies.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Arianne » Thu May 26, 2011 11:04 am

Yes, I've been careful to move away from the previous puddle before the next one dies. :P I guess the puddle just must be bigger than the graphic. I've literally had 4 puddles on the floor, one whelp still on me, and a whelp spawn from one of the pools. Though I guess I don't know where the back right (as you face her) whelp spawns from (on a generic whelp spawn), so it could be that I'm mistaking that whelp for one that's spawning from a pool.
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