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[10] Nefarian: Suggestion

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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby PsiVen » Fri May 13, 2011 10:51 am

It's up now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD1seTzoWKc

If you're getting 140k crackles, my suspicion would be missing nature resist. But even just with MotW they should be 10% resisted :/

You can't really see in the video, but the Nefarian tank rotates the boss frequently in P3 to avoid fire and keep the head/tail from facing anywhere near me, and our hunter tries to stay between us for NR aura coverage.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Chicken » Fri May 13, 2011 11:16 am

Técaro wrote:If you have a link to yoru video, I'd greatly appreciate it. It's the same tactic we're trying to use for our hc kill. Our problem so far hasn't been with the adds though really but more our healers going oom by 50%. And random 140k crackles or crackles that kill topped off people.
Are you using an Affliction Warlock, and if you are, are they using Curse of the Elements and specced into Jinx? If so, people will get afflicted by the CoE debuff everytime the Warlocks get Mind Controlled, which will cause higher than normal crackle damage.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby PsiVen » Fri May 13, 2011 11:32 am

Oh yeah, we made our warlock(s) either spec out of jinx or not use CoE (usually we have a moonkin). Since we started using Ring of Frost on adds in P1 I noticed that it would go hostile when the mage was MCed, which seems to happen nearly half the time. You're guaranteed to get screwed with Jinx.

That's a major hazard, by the way. If you run through Ring of Frost during a mind control you will need to bubble it off as everything will immediately turn and go after healers who may also be frozen.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Dashdar » Mon May 16, 2011 5:21 am

Hey, I'm hoping you all can give me some ideas to help with my guild's attempts on Nef.

We're having some problems with the adds in the first phase. We're using my fear (Pally) on one and a shackle and/or an ice trap so our DK can pick up everything and kite them. After several attempts, we were able to survive that but we're not pushing Nef through two crackles before Ony explodes.

So, I'm thinking that loss in DPS from CCing the adds is what is hurting us. Any suggestions on a better kiting strategy or what about splitting some DPS?

Raid Comp
2 Pally Tanks
2 Holy Priests
Resto Shaman
Shadow Priest
Survival/BM Hunter
Frost DK
Enhance Shaman
Fury Warrior

We do have a Mage who would be ideal, but he has not put a lot of time in on progression so he only subs in when a main person can not come, so changing the group is not really an option.

Thanks
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Chicken » Mon May 16, 2011 5:54 am

We did normal Nef just yesterday by having our Fury Warrior strap on a shield and swap to defensive stance to off-tank the adds, with him having a dedicated healer. Everyone else completely ignored the adds in phase one. It's very healable according to our resto druid so long as whoever is doing it is using their defensive cooldowns right when the first add is at 15+ stacks of the buff they get since that's basically the most damage intense part of it; after that the adds start dying. Off-tanking them like this also means they're in a very neat pile for phase 3.

This usually resorts to us pushing Nef to 90% at the same time as the last add dies. We always keep one of our melee DPS permanently on Onyxia as well; it varies a bit based on who is doing it since not all our raiders are equally skilled, but we have Ony on at most 30% this way by the time Nef does a second crackle.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Epimer » Mon May 16, 2011 6:37 am

We do almost exactly what Chicken said. One of our warriors is Fury, the other is Arms; either is capable of picking up the adds, dragging them all to one spot and hitting Shield Wall to cover the last bit before they fall over dead. The only scary bits are if they get stunned by a tailswipe with a lot of adds on them, but as long as they call it out when it happens it's still easily healable (I've healed and tanked Nef kills).

This worked out much more controlled and reproducible than scrambling to CC them.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon May 16, 2011 6:43 am

I don't believe cc is requried for the adds, we've recently taken to using a rogue for them as we lost our plate dps. Apparently evasion is enough to keep the rogue healable through the end of it, and we never cc any of them.

Only 1 crackle sounds like a low raid dps issue, but maybe it is the distraction from ccing the adds. My experience is that sometimes it can be difficult to avoid killing ony before the second crackle, or too soon afterwards. Both my groups just send the kiter and his healer to take care of the adds, while everyone but 1 dps goes on Nef once he is in position. 1 dps should be sufficient to burn down ony after the second crackle.

Be aware on the transition the healers do need several seconds to top the raid off after the second crackle, prior to phase transition so people can survive the lava swim. Also, if you still can't get a second crackle off, you could just accept that there will be 1 crackle, and go for it realizing that ph3 will have an extra 1.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Dashdar » Mon May 16, 2011 7:58 am

Chicken wrote:We did normal Nef just yesterday by having our Fury Warrior strap on a shield and swap to defensive stance to off-tank the adds, with him having a dedicated healer. Everyone else completely ignored the adds in phase one. It's very healable according to our resto druid so long as whoever is doing it is using their defensive cooldowns right when the first add is at 15+ stacks of the buff they get since that's basically the most damage intense part of it; after that the adds start dying. Off-tanking them like this also means they're in a very neat pile for phase 3.

This usually resorts to us pushing Nef to 90% at the same time as the last add dies. We always keep one of our melee DPS permanently on Onyxia as well; it varies a bit based on who is doing it since not all our raiders are equally skilled, but we have Ony on at most 30% this way by the time Nef does a second crackle.


Thanks chicken, I had not even thought about asking the Warrior to grab a shield.

Currently we have everyone on Only till she gets to about 20-15% then switch to Nef. It seems most of you imply the ppl burn Nef through 2 crackles then switch and kill Only (which I have suggested to my guild for next time any way). Are we just starting on the wrong dragon?
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon May 16, 2011 8:23 am

Nef doesn't land right away, so you really have to burn Ony a bit.

You can do only 1 crackle in ph1, it just makes ph3 longer and puts more pressure on the add tank. If you want 2 crackles in ph1, then have everyone but 1 designated dps switch to Nef once he's in position. We usually have a melee stay on Ony, but a ranged could work fine too. 1 strong dps can kill Ony shortly after the second crackle while everyone else burns Nef.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Aerron » Mon May 16, 2011 8:34 am

Dashdar wrote:Currently we have everyone on Only till she gets to about 20-15% then switch to Nef. It seems most of you imply the ppl burn Nef through 2 crackles then switch and kill Only (which I have suggested to my guild for next time any way). Are we just starting on the wrong dragon?


1) you have ~30 seconds before Nef lands. During this time, everyone should burn Ony as much as possible.
2) Once he lands, all dps switches to Nef except for one, who stays on Ony to make sure she's taking continous damage.
3) After his second crackle, everyone goes back to Ony.

I will also second the no CC on adds in P1 so that they stack nicer for P3.

EDIT: ninja'd by Hrobertgar
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon May 16, 2011 10:24 am

Also, unless you have REALLY good healers you probably want to keep dps off Nef from 2nd crackle until phase 3. If you burn Nef too hard, then you can get a crackle right away in ph3, while the healers are still trying to get people topped off (maybe use a raid CD if you need). There is an achievement for getting him below 50% prior to ph3, but ph2 crackles are scarry for healers, don't try it lightly. Myself, I have never had to heal a ph2 crackle.

Since they nerfed the ph2 Nef dmg a little, mana is less of an issue but I still keep my mana pots handy for this fight when I heal it.

ph3 is all about the add tank getting resets on the adds and spacing fire carefully while the boss tank uses CDs appropriately as crackle + breath can be brutal on heals. The add tank heals must stay with the add tank, but everyone else should generally hug Nef's flank to allow more room for fire. If the adds don't reset, then shortly after they all max on stacks the add tank will probably die...
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Dashdar » Mon May 16, 2011 10:35 am

Thanks for all of the advice. I think things will go smoother this week.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Siiri » Tue May 17, 2011 3:50 pm

This evening we had our first go on Nefarian 10 men normal. We tried the one tank takes add + onyxia tactic in P1 (All dps nuke onyxia and save all dps on nefarian until P3).

Our setup is as follows:

Tank:

Paladin (me)
Warrior

Healers:

2 x Druids (resto)
Priest (Disc)

DPS:

Rouge (ass)
2 x Hunters (surv, marks)
Priest (shadow)
Shaman (Enh)

P1 starts with paladin taking Onyxia and hunters tries to MD adds to him. Warrior takes Nefarian when he lands (tanking them apart and raid in the middle of the room). We try to burn Onyxia asap using BL as soon as adds are under control.

P2 Nothing special here.

P3 Paladin tanks Nefarian and warrior kites adds.

No dps on Nefarian in P1 and P2.

Best attempt was a 5% wipe, but most ended with failed MDs in P1 or failed add tanking in P3 (50-60%).

Okey, points of failure was that hunters seemed to have big problems with MD (even when one of them re-glyped) resulting that I had to taunt on cooldown more or less. Second point of failure was that the add tank didn't move out of the shadowblaze intime resulting in veeery angry adds or he had a hard time picking them up after they went to "sleep".

Any suggestions as how to make it go more smooth? Should I tank the adds and Nefarian in P1 since it should be easier to just grab most of the adds before they land and same in P3 should I tank the adds and hope that I do a better job with shadowblazes or is there something else to be done here besides hoping that hunters and the tank will do better next time?

Thanks in advance!

Happy hunting.. ;)
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby PsiVen » Tue May 17, 2011 11:15 pm

Tank the adds+Nef. You'll have time to gather at least 3 adds and MDing the final two should be trivial.

That doesn't mean you have to change P3 tanking. Adds don't have any memory, and Nef is easily taunted.
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Re: [10] Nefarian: Suggestion

Postby Siiri » Wed May 18, 2011 1:18 am

PsiVen wrote:Tank the adds+Nef. You'll have time to gather at least 3 adds and MDing the final two should be trivial.

That doesn't mean you have to change P3 tanking. Adds don't have any memory, and Nef is easily taunted.


Sounds solid, we'll have a go at it next time and if the warrior still has trouble to tank the adds in P3 I'll have a go at it. I really like the general tactics since it's really good for a raid with solid healers and tanks. No need to involve dps in kiting adds/cc'ing them.

Thank you for your input PsiVen!
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