Ret tanks?

[warden]

Not a problem... In early 4.06 that was a really common misconception. In all practicality, you'll see a larger difference than that. The debate largely revolved around the high-dps Zealoty rotation gaining from the 20% dps bonus of wings vs the lost HoW fillers (or pushed back AoW procs) under AW when using the TV-heavy Zealoty rotation and wasn't corrected for several weeks.

[theckhd]

This has wandered slightly off-topic, but how do you time GAnK? I remember reading in the EJ thread some time ago that it's got a ramp-up time of 5-10 seconds, so I've been popping it at around the same time I use my first Inq, such that it's fully stacked for the beginning of the Zeal/AW burn. Is there a more sophisticated way to handle this, or is that still about right?

I only go ret rarely anymore, so it's not a huge deal. But it's still fun to show up our main-spec rets once in a while despite having far inferior gear.

[warden]

With GanK having a 10 second longer uptime than AW/Zealotry, the ideal timing ensures that the last 20 seconds of GanK overlaps with the full length of AW/Z. By utilizing the last 20 seconds, you'll have a maximized stack of Ancient Power for the entire time AW is up. Pop it 8-10 seconds before you throw up AW/Z; it is better to throw it up a couple seconds early than a couple seconds late. The difference between starting with a 15-19 stack of Ancient Power is minimal, but it is much more significant if the stack falls off a couple seconds before AW/Z does (this is a lot easier to time if you have the 4pc).

I only go ret rarely anymore, so it's not a huge deal. But it's still fun to show up our main-spec rets once in a while despite having far inferior gear.

Yep, Ana plays ret on a few of our fights too, and she definately keeps me on my toes.

[bldavis]

i am ready to say screw it, my pallies os are going holy....

(that and i love healing on my priest a HELLUVA lot more then i ever liked ret)

[Worldie]

Healing with a Holy Pala may prove horribly frustrating after having healed with any other healer.

[Hrobertgar]

The other pally tank toons in my guild also mostly have heal OS, even our ret ahs a heal OS rather than tank. My tank seems to be one of the few with a ret spec. I use it for Atramedes and sometimes for V&T but I am getting better at it. I only went ret-os originally because in icc it was often desireable to have a tank with a decent dps set.

Besides, my main is a holy pally (multple pallies ftw!) so its fun for me to sometimes play around with ret. I think pally healing can be fun if you use your CDs propperly and take advantage of other class characteristics (taunt-pong, or holy wrath stun, etc..). Furthermore, as gear improves I think higher levels of spell power in conjunction with Mastery may provide some interesting options in later tiers.

[Brekkie]

I concur with warden.

[Fetzie]

If I activate zealotry and AW together, and my CS cooldown is more than the 3 seconds it gets during bloodlust, should I use two fillers between crusader strikes (CS-TV-HoW-CS-TV-(exo or judge)-CS-TV-HoW-CS etc?

And has anyone else noticed that you get nearly 40 seconds of inquisition with the 4set bonus and 3 holy power? That is long enough to slip an extra TV in before needing to refresh Inq.

[Worldie]

Usually you are not supposed to refresh Inq with 3 HP if you got set bonus, you always refresh at 1 or 2. Unless you happen to get a lot of DP procs at same time or have Zealotry up. If you get 3 HP up and got to refresh Inq, you are better off using TV then CS then refreshing Inq with 1 HP.

[warden]

To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS. Also, on your refresh question, it depends on whether Inq is about to fall off, or has fallen off. Generaly speaking, if you have less than 1.5 seconds of Inq remaining (and a 4pc bonus), refresh, DP proc or not. More than 1.5 sec, continue to the next step in your rotation.

[Fetzie]

ok, thanks for the clarification

[Loras]

To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS. Also, on your refresh question, it depends on whether Inq is about to fall off, or has fallen off. Generaly speaking, if you have less than 1.5 seconds of Inq remaining (and a 4pc bonus), refresh, DP proc or not. More than 1.5 sec, continue to the next step in your rotation.

Uh, why would you use a filler if CS is at 3 sec CD and you can get a Holy Power charge every 2nd GCD instead of every 3rd?

[Worldie]

Indeed that makes no sense. You only use 1 finisher when CS cd is sub 3.75 sec.

[warden]

I'll dig out the math when I get home--can't see it on a work computer. What you're refering to is "CS pushback," or the amount of time you're willing to delay a filler to squeeze in an extra CS. The optimal amount of CS pushback is dependent on the filler you're about to use, ranging from none (TV, HoW, Exo), to a more significant amount (in my case, almost .1 sec for judgement and .2 sec for HW). I'll try to do the best I can to help you understand here, but I know it'll make more sense to see the math. Picture the following:

0 Sec: CS
1.5 Sec: Filler 1
3 Sec: Here is where you use either filler two, or do nothing waiting for CS to come u .75 seconds later.
3.75 Sec: Here is where you could que CS.... except for latency telling you its still on CD.
3.93 Sec: (Assuming 80ms latency), you can finally CS
4.5 Sec: This is where your CS would have landed, had you just done filler 2 at 3 Sec.
5.43 Sec: Next filler available if you CSed at 3.93.

Starting to get an idea how much time, %wise, is wasted in the rotation waiting by pushing back CS? The key is that while the game will let you "que" a filler that isn't on CD, it won't let you que a CS until that ability is actually off CD, hense why CS pushback is so bad. Now consider that under heroism, the only reasonable time you're going to see CSes that low, you should always be under Zealotry/AW, leaving you an abundance of high-priority fillers. Generaly speaking, your heroism rotation will actually look like this:
0: CS
1.5: TV:
3: Filler two
4.5: CS again.

Filler two, under these conditions, is nearly always HoW, Exo, or a DP proc for a TV, the fillers that are well worth delaying that CS for. To link back into the first paragraph, knowing what your levels of CS pushback are is essential in determining whether or not to delay filler 2 when it isn't Exo/TV/HoW. For me, what that means is that if CS is coming off CD in .1 sec, I'll delay a judgement for another CS, and if the next filler is HW, I'll delay it if CS is coming off CD in .2 sec or less. Otherwise, its always CS/Filler/Filler2. That help make any sense at all?

[Loras]

That does make sense although I'd still prefer to see the maths behind it. I think the doubt came from the fact that
"To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS."

3 sec =/= 3.75 (which is more like 4, tbh), and if CS is strictly at 3 sec (3.00), dont see how that would justify using a 2nd filler instead of another CS ^^