Remove Advertisements

Ret tanks?

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Wed May 11, 2011 7:18 am

Not a problem... In early 4.06 that was a really common misconception. In all practicality, you'll see a larger difference than that. The debate largely revolved around the high-dps Zealoty rotation gaining from the 20% dps bonus of wings vs the lost HoW fillers (or pushed back AoW procs) under AW when using the TV-heavy Zealoty rotation and wasn't corrected for several weeks.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby theckhd » Wed May 11, 2011 7:34 am

This has wandered slightly off-topic, but how do you time GAnK? I remember reading in the EJ thread some time ago that it's got a ramp-up time of 5-10 seconds, so I've been popping it at around the same time I use my first Inq, such that it's fully stacked for the beginning of the Zeal/AW burn. Is there a more sophisticated way to handle this, or is that still about right?

I only go ret rarely anymore, so it's not a huge deal. But it's still fun to show up our main-spec rets once in a while despite having far inferior gear.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Wed May 11, 2011 10:25 am

With GanK having a 10 second longer uptime than AW/Zealotry, the ideal timing ensures that the last 20 seconds of GanK overlaps with the full length of AW/Z. By utilizing the last 20 seconds, you'll have a maximized stack of Ancient Power for the entire time AW is up. Pop it 8-10 seconds before you throw up AW/Z; it is better to throw it up a couple seconds early than a couple seconds late. The difference between starting with a 15-19 stack of Ancient Power is minimal, but it is much more significant if the stack falls off a couple seconds before AW/Z does (this is a lot easier to time if you have the 4pc).
theckhd wrote:I only go ret rarely anymore, so it's not a huge deal. But it's still fun to show up our main-spec rets once in a while despite having far inferior gear.
Yep, Ana plays ret on a few of our fights too, and she definately keeps me on my toes.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby bldavis » Wed May 11, 2011 10:30 am

i am ready to say screw it, my pallies os are going holy....

(that and i love healing on my priest a HELLUVA lot more then i ever liked ret)
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7347
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Worldie » Wed May 11, 2011 10:32 am

Healing with a Holy Pala may prove horribly frustrating after having healed with any other healer.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13293
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed May 11, 2011 10:37 am

The other pally tank toons in my guild also mostly have heal OS, even our ret ahs a heal OS rather than tank. My tank seems to be one of the few with a ret spec. I use it for Atramedes and sometimes for V&T but I am getting better at it. I only went ret-os originally because in icc it was often desireable to have a tank with a decent dps set.

Besides, my main is a holy pally (multple pallies ftw!) so its fun for me to sometimes play around with ret. I think pally healing can be fun if you use your CDs propperly and take advantage of other class characteristics (taunt-pong, or holy wrath stun, etc..). Furthermore, as gear improves I think higher levels of spell power in conjunction with Mastery may provide some interesting options in later tiers.
Never Pug a random Troll Heroic, always wait for the guild group.

Hrobearina - 85 Healer - space goat
Hrobertgar - 85 Tank - human
Hrobernia - 85 Arcane - human
Hrobanka - 85 BM - elf
Hrobertgar
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:42 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Brekkie » Wed May 11, 2011 4:43 pm

I concur with warden.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Fetzie » Sat May 14, 2011 3:22 am

If I activate zealotry and AW together, and my CS cooldown is more than the 3 seconds it gets during bloodlust, should I use two fillers between crusader strikes (CS-TV-HoW-CS-TV-(exo or judge)-CS-TV-HoW-CS etc?

And has anyone else noticed that you get nearly 40 seconds of inquisition with the 4set bonus and 3 holy power? That is long enough to slip an extra TV in before needing to refresh Inq.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Worldie » Sat May 14, 2011 12:21 pm

Usually you are not supposed to refresh Inq with 3 HP if you got set bonus, you always refresh at 1 or 2. Unless you happen to get a lot of DP procs at same time or have Zealotry up. If you get 3 HP up and got to refresh Inq, you are better off using TV then CS then refreshing Inq with 1 HP.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13293
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Mon May 16, 2011 1:46 pm

To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS. Also, on your refresh question, it depends on whether Inq is about to fall off, or has fallen off. Generaly speaking, if you have less than 1.5 seconds of Inq remaining (and a 4pc bonus), refresh, DP proc or not. More than 1.5 sec, continue to the next step in your rotation.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Fetzie » Tue May 17, 2011 1:01 am

ok, thanks for the clarification
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2172
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Loras » Tue May 17, 2011 5:19 am

warden wrote:To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS. Also, on your refresh question, it depends on whether Inq is about to fall off, or has fallen off. Generaly speaking, if you have less than 1.5 seconds of Inq remaining (and a 4pc bonus), refresh, DP proc or not. More than 1.5 sec, continue to the next step in your rotation.

Uh, why would you use a filler if CS is at 3 sec CD and you can get a Holy Power charge every 2nd GCD instead of every 3rd?
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Worldie » Tue May 17, 2011 6:28 am

Indeed that makes no sense. You only use 1 finisher when CS cd is sub 3.75 sec.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13293
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Tue May 17, 2011 6:48 am

I'll dig out the math when I get home--can't see it on a work computer. What you're refering to is "CS pushback," or the amount of time you're willing to delay a filler to squeeze in an extra CS. The optimal amount of CS pushback is dependent on the filler you're about to use, ranging from none (TV, HoW, Exo), to a more significant amount (in my case, almost .1 sec for judgement and .2 sec for HW). I'll try to do the best I can to help you understand here, but I know it'll make more sense to see the math. Picture the following:

0 Sec: CS
1.5 Sec: Filler 1
3 Sec: Here is where you use either filler two, or do nothing waiting for CS to come u .75 seconds later.
3.75 Sec: Here is where you could que CS.... except for latency telling you its still on CD.
3.93 Sec: (Assuming 80ms latency), you can finally CS
4.5 Sec: This is where your CS would have landed, had you just done filler 2 at 3 Sec.
5.43 Sec: Next filler available if you CSed at 3.93.

Starting to get an idea how much time, %wise, is wasted in the rotation waiting by pushing back CS? The key is that while the game will let you "que" a filler that isn't on CD, it won't let you que a CS until that ability is actually off CD, hense why CS pushback is so bad. Now consider that under heroism, the only reasonable time you're going to see CSes that low, you should always be under Zealotry/AW, leaving you an abundance of high-priority fillers. Generaly speaking, your heroism rotation will actually look like this:
0: CS
1.5: TV:
3: Filler two
4.5: CS again.

Filler two, under these conditions, is nearly always HoW, Exo, or a DP proc for a TV, the fillers that are well worth delaying that CS for. To link back into the first paragraph, knowing what your levels of CS pushback are is essential in determining whether or not to delay filler 2 when it isn't Exo/TV/HoW. For me, what that means is that if CS is coming off CD in .1 sec, I'll delay a judgement for another CS, and if the next filler is HW, I'll delay it if CS is coming off CD in .2 sec or less. Otherwise, its always CS/Filler/Filler2. That help make any sense at all?
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Loras » Tue May 17, 2011 8:05 am

That does make sense although I'd still prefer to see the maths behind it. I think the doubt came from the fact that
"To answer your two part question:
You always use two fillers, even at a 3 sec CS."

3 sec =/= 3.75 (which is more like 4, tbh), and if CS is strictly at 3 sec (3.00), dont see how that would justify using a 2nd filler instead of another CS ^^
Image
User avatar
Loras
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:07 am

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Ruldar and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Ruldar and 1 guest