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Ret tanks?

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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Ardrhyst » Tue May 10, 2011 6:39 am

The ret in my guild has a macro to preSalv himself before any significant pull. I also have a macro to Salv him, which I will use if I notice it's needed or he'll call for it if I don't. Nobody else is even close to his TPS, so dumping a GCD to reduce his threat significantly doesn't have big threat consequences for the rest of the raid.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Tue May 10, 2011 6:47 am

Unless you're using a glyphed salv, this is not helping you. The threat reduction from Salv is %-based, and that doesn't help you on the pull. He'd be better off opening, getting Inq up, etc, and then salving about 15-20 seconds in before the first cooldown phase. If he's burning all his cooldowns immediately on the pull, he's actually costing himself dps. There was a bit of discussion on a similar topic here http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31534&start=42
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Kelaan » Tue May 10, 2011 12:28 pm

Brekkie wrote:Ret ... if you have to hold back on that initial opener sequence, it totally fucks your whole DPS.

Is this because you're unable to optimize the use of your pre-pot?
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Belloc » Tue May 10, 2011 12:48 pm

We had a ret that had a habit of pulling aggro on bosses at the start of fights. It was very frustrating :P
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Worldie » Tue May 10, 2011 1:21 pm

I just (in this moment) had one of those LOL moments on pull. If the stars align it's quite... funny.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Koatanga » Tue May 10, 2011 1:25 pm

Sort of back to the original point... The more geared the group is in heroics, the less the tank will be able to hold onto things. The DPS people do more TPS while the tank does less. This is because fights are shorter, so vengeance does not have much of a chance to stack, and the tank avoids more of what gives us vengeance in the first place.

I'm starting to get to the point that I can get some of the DPS pieces on off-spec, so I will work some into my dungeon set. Dungeon set will also have hit/exp. This should help not only by making me do more DPS (and therefore TPS), but also by avoiding less I can get more vengeance.

It's another case where vengeance turns out to be stupid, IMO. It hearkens back to the days when we couldn't get mana unless we were being hit.

If you get hit you gen more threat than if you don't get hit. Well, since the job of a tank is to maximise threat while minimising incoming damage, that seems rather counterintuitive.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Kelaan » Tue May 10, 2011 2:25 pm

Koatanga wrote:The DPS people do more TPS while the tank does less. This is because fights are shorter, so vengeance does not have much of a chance to stack, and the tank avoids more of what gives us vengeance in the first place.

I'm starting to get to the point that I can get some of the DPS pieces on off-spec, so I will work some into my dungeon set.


As you mentioned, a hit/exp capped threat set is really handy for heroics. I find that wearing two pieces (Gloves + X) of pvp gear helps a lot, also. 5% bonus on CS, plus 70 Str, plus 10% from 2x Tier 11 makes me happy. :D I find trinkets are useful for hit-capping, too.

The down side is, it makes it hard to cap those for Zul'Aman... but I suppose if you're pulling as fast as the videos show for the bear run, you'll have vengeance stacked pretty high. ;)
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue May 10, 2011 5:31 pm

Kelaan wrote:As you mentioned, a hit/exp capped threat set is really handy for heroics.


I made a hit/hard xpt cap set for yucks.
In my blockcap set I have 12.25% dodge, 13.35% parry, 66.85% block, 0% hit, and 10 xpt (glyphed) and 148.1k base HP.
In my hardcap set I have 10.62% block, 10.15% parry, 43.88% block, 8.1% hit, 57 xpt (glyphed) and 144k basehp. And it turns me into a dragon (not the most efficient trinket for the set, but it's fun goddamnit).

It is a riot.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby masterpoobaa » Tue May 10, 2011 10:20 pm

Ive been hanging out for that trinket... its Pure Porn.
Nice kit summaries.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 10, 2011 10:37 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Brekkie wrote:Ret ... if you have to hold back on that initial opener sequence, it totally fucks your whole DPS.

Is this because you're unable to optimize the use of your pre-pot?


While that hurts, it's not the main reason.

Ret DPS tracked over time looks like a sin graph. Big peaks, separated by valleys. The plurality of ret Damage-dealing occurs during short bursts when all your cooldowns are active, with the time in-between being mediocre dps.

It's a fundamental aspect of good DPS for all specs to stack cooldowns and damage increasing effects with each other for multiplicative benefits (If you have something that grants +AP, something else that increases damage by 20%, and something else that grants haste rating, you do more damage if you have all of them active at the same time, than if you use them individually), but this is even MORE true for ret. One of the advanced techniques I always utilized was using my in-game stopwatch and de-equipping/re-equipping everything I had which had some kind of ICD (primarily trinkets) in the 30-second countdown leading up to a pull at precisely the interval required in order for their ICD to finish and for them to then proc right as my ramp-up finished and when I would be popping my CDs.
So, for example, if I knew it would take about 15 seconds for my ramp-up to finish fully, the boss to get fully debuffed, and the tank to establish good threat, and I had a trinket with a 45-second ICD, I would de-equip/re-equip the trinket at 30-seconds prior to the pull, activating it's ICD, so that ON the pull it would have 15 seconds of ICDs still remaining and would not proc immediately and be partially wasted while threat was still uncertain and ramp-up was not complete and damage cooldowns were not yet up.

If a ret launches into their first cooldown-stacking burn-sequence, and has to stop, bubble, or back off, or even has to delay the use of that burn-sequence in the first place, it has a couple major effects:
1)Trinkets and procs get de-synched from your damage increasing cooldowns. This is hugely detrimental, and takes a long time (several minutes) to recover from.
2)Loss of full effectiveness of one burn-cycle is essentially like simply not doing one burn-cycle at all over the course of the fight. Since the plurality of ret damage occurs during burn cycles, if you would have only been able to fit 6 burn-cycles into a fight's length, and 1 gets essentially wasted, you've now dropped from 6 burn-cycles to 5. It is a huge disproportionate loss in DPS output when you put it in that context, even though it was only having to stop or hold back for 10-15 seconds or so.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby RedAces » Wed May 11, 2011 12:53 am

hey,

do you cast Wings and Zeal at the same time? SimCraft shows that it's a DPS loss, so decoupling it will smoothen out your dpsa and help tremendously.

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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby Brekkie » Wed May 11, 2011 1:08 am

Don't trust sims for stuff that's that narrow. Plus that particular one makes assumptions that I don't agree with.

In real play, combining them WILL be better DPS, I practically guarantee it.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby RedAces » Wed May 11, 2011 1:22 am

hey,

Brekkie wrote:Don't trust sims for stuff that's that narrow.

The difference is +103 (21492 vs 21603) with the gear I had back then. Plus it helps you with you early threat gen.

Brekkie wrote:Plus that particular one makes assumptions that I don't agree with.
In real play, combining them WILL be better DPS, I practically guarantee it.


Which assumptions do you mean? Movementphases / flight phases don't change a thing if you're on-target when this Cooldowns are up, I'll try a "helter-skelter" tonight to prove that, but by then, whats wrong with simcraft?

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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby warden » Wed May 11, 2011 6:50 am

Red:
Your simcraft is wrong. Don't know what you've got messed up in there, but current simcraft shows stacking them as a gain. When I'm not at work I'll try to find the link for you.

Rets reading Brekkie's post: Please don't think this is carte-blance to haul off on the pull and go nuts. This DOES NOT MEAN blow guardian, wings, and Zealotry the second it is possible at the beginning of the fight. As it has been stated across multiple posts, Ret has a ramp-up time that MUST be factored in, and during that 10-15 seconds of ramp-up (and it will be more than that if you don't have the 4pc T11).

Furthermore, it is a much larger dps loss to miss-time your guardian,
miss-time your Inq refresh before popping your CDs, salv yourself in the middle of your rotation while under CDs, or have to bubble because you pulled threat than it is to not have your trinkets line up with with your non-on-use trinkets line up perfectly. Brekkie's post is on the very high-end of min-maxing, and what he said is dead-on, especially about losing an overall burn cycle over the course of the fight (see my post in the link above on the same thing), but for the great majority of players having threat problems as ret early, they're probably just not waiting long enough. Even when running with non-guild tanks, I don't have serious threat issues as long as I hold that initial burn off as properly described above; for people wondering about gear level and such, my ret set is about 370.
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Re: Ret tanks?

Postby RedAces » Wed May 11, 2011 7:09 am

hey,

warden wrote:RedAces:
Your simcraft is wrong. Don't know what you've got messed up in there, but current simcraft shows stacking them as a gain. When I'm not at work I'll try to find the link for you.


I ran the Sims with Patch 4.06 with my gear back then and decoupling Zeal and Wings showed a dps gain. I've re-ran SimCraft today (410-3 with my current gear) and you're right, BUT it's almost identical (23239 decoupled vs 23254 synched). So thank you for correcting me. :)

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