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10 vs 25 difficulty

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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby inthedrops » Mon May 09, 2011 12:39 pm

exiledknight wrote:Really interesting to read input from someone who has done progression on both, I think your post is well worth chiming in months later.


Now someone who went the opposite direction (25H to 10H) please post :)
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Mon May 09, 2011 2:07 pm

inthedrops wrote:
exiledknight wrote:Really interesting to read input from someone who has done progression on both, I think your post is well worth chiming in months later.


Now someone who went the opposite direction (25H to 10H) please post :)


We did 10H Al'akir long before 25H, and having done both - 10H is a comparative joke. This, however, is my only relevant point of comparison, and I'm hardly willing to try and generalize it.

EDIT: Yes, that comparison is subjective, the very same thing I've complained about before in this thread, so I will expand. The P2 DPS check in 25s is much much tighter than in 10s, to the point that you really don't have the option of blowing heroes in P1 and skipping a windburst and it's associated failures. P2 requires significantly more co-ordination and maximization effort to kill the adds on-time and without losing significant Al'akir DPS. P1 requires actually having a plan, rather than popping heroism, eating the lightning, and "just winning", like you can do in 10man. In 10-man you can break the raid composition by solo-tanking to pick up an extra DPS, and that's not really advisable in 25s, nor would it pay the same benefit. In general, the 10-man version, as compared to the 25-man version feels more like Wrath comparative tuning.

Again, that's the only fight I have any experience with in 10s, but by comparison it's trivial in 10s. I still refuse to make that an extended generalization, something this thread seems to be generally rife with.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby PsiVen » Mon May 09, 2011 6:26 pm

I'm sure that Al'Akir is much easier if you can do all of those things you described, but for our 10-man raid it was nothing of the sort. We tried blowing heroism in P1: it wasn't enough to skip a wind burst, made P2 impossible, and actually didn't seem to affect P1 much at all. P1 and P2 required meticulous planning and timing, both phases forced us to use 4 healers to survive, and the only way we met the DPS check was by having every stormling die within the 0-2sec Feedback window up to 11-12x. Similarly, we couldn't solo tank -- we had to have a DPS tank, increasing total damage taken to get our DPS up to snuff. It was probably the hardest progression fight we've seen since M'uru, which most of our raid did the long haul on.

I don't think that in any case you can generalize far enough to say one version is easier than another. There are many factors that a group of 25H raiders can bring to the 10H fight to trivialize it, mostly because there is such a huge variance based on raid composition and a comparatively large incentive to go ahead and stack a 10-man to kill it with your best setup. The real truth is that Al'Akir's 10H difficulty is not balanced against... itself.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Rhiannon » Mon May 09, 2011 6:29 pm

I progressed all content on my main in 25 man, and have been progressing in 10 man heroics with two other groups. One is an alt run of my main's guild, so everyone goes into the fights knowing full well what to do, and the other is a fairly casual guild on another realm where everyone apart from myself is seeing the fight for the first time. I'll just comment on the fights I've attempted/cleared with the various 10 man groups:

Halfus - wasn't really much of an issue with any of the three groups, having a guarateed mage for sub-50% and more raid CDs made 25 man more consistent I guess.

Valiona/Theralion - never attempted it on 10 man when it was horribly mistuned. Right now with one sub rogue the fight's a joke on 10 man; but with two sub rogues it's a joke on 25 man. In earlier incarnations 10 man was pretty much undoable due to tuning.

Ascendant Council - all the positioning aspects are a lot trickier on 25 man. There was a bit of a herding cats aspect to learning phase 2 with 25 people, and I've only tried/killed it with my main guild's alt run rather than with my casual guild, so we found the fight a ton easier knowing all the aspects already from 25 man progress. Phase 3 positioning is also a lot easier on 10 man, but the tuning of the damage requirements feels about as tight on 10 as on 25.

Omnotron - going at this with alts, we knew the fight in theory from 25 man, but we found we had to be a lot more rigorous than on 25. One death on 10 was a very big deal, while even 3 deaths on 25 is recoverable. The three healers were a lot more thinly spread on 10 than the 7 or 8 we used on 25 man progress, it felt, so the raid as a whole had to be a lot more careful about unnecessary damage. Fewer raid and single target cooldowns floating around along with two DPS tied up with interrupting omnotron prior to 4.1 made this feel quite a lot harder on 10 to me.

Maloriak - both 10 man runs I've done this with had pretty good setups for the encounter (boomkins, demo locks). The alt run steam rolled it, the casual run spent quite a while to get it but I never felt it was particularly a harder encounter on 10 or 25.

Atramedes - bit of a joke of a fight given the various incarnations it's been through, both 10 and 25 right now are tuned way too laxly.

Chimaeron - progressing this on 25 we went with two tanks and lots of external CDs (many turtles gave their lives so this boss would die). On 10 we've used 2 tanks and a dps tank, so it's a bit of a different fight, but I can't really say that it's harder. Obviously the healers shoulder a higher amount of personal responsibility in 10 - if one of them screws up someone will pretty much definitely die, whereas there's more redundancy on 25.

Magmaw - well we progressed this on 25 with construct kiting to Omnotron's room, and by the time I got to it on 10 man it was a much nerfed and much easier fight, so can't really form an accurate comparison.

My main message is that it really depends entirely on the fight mechanics and tuning whether a fight will be easier on 10 or 25, and making generalisations is fairly pointless. I think Ascendant Council phases 1 and 2, and Omnotron Council are examples of how 10 can be both easier and harder than 25. 10 mans are inherently a lot more likely to be hamstringed by setup issues than 25 man - for the extreme example, compare V&T with and without a rogue.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Arincia » Mon May 09, 2011 11:48 pm

Well not how sure this counts but I'll give it a try. Going from 25 normal (10/12 with nef down) to 10 man normal(12/12)/heroic (1/13 cleared working on others).
There is a lot less fall backs/redunency in 10 man then 25. By this i mean in 10 you only got 1 BR while in 25 you got 3. This means you could plan to just sac person A 3 times to get by a hard portion of a boss fight (cho heroic).
Another example is while raid CD's have addressed equality so far 10's rarely will get a personal external cd if the comp isn't set up specific for it. (salvs/bop/innervates/etc).

Easiest example i can think of is healer wise. 25 you got multiple druids to feed innervates and the same for priest with divine hymn. Heck toss in 2 resto shamans and its very hard for healers to not get a mana CD every 30-45 seconds if you wanted to. But for 10s the average CD length just cannot compete without some part of the raid suffering.

In all i'd say 10's so far require a lot more preplanned execution before the attempt to make it happen then 25 does with all the tools it has to increase their margin of err compared to 10. However I will say all things equal you can really notice improvements due to upgrades in 10's then 25's for the raid performance.

I'm not sure how insightful that was but its my 2 cents tossed into the bucket.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Tue May 10, 2011 7:30 am

Arincia wrote:In all i'd say 10's so far require a lot more preplanned execution before the attempt to make it happen then 25 does with all the tools it has to increase their margin of err compared to 10.


I really do not see how you feel this way, you cite the tools it has, however no matter what blizzard has said any raid leader worth a damn has known you have to bring the class, encounters on 25 man are designed around 25 mans having every single buff and every single cooldown. Not having all of them is causing your raid a great disservice, this is why 25 man bosses typically have over 3x the health of 10, to not only make up for the increase in the players in raid but for buff coverage as well. While there may be parts of fights you can brute force in a 25 man that you cannot in a 10, there are many fights or parts of fights(anything where spacing matters)is much easier on 10 man. This is the balance, the most challenging parts of a fight on 10 man may be trivial on 25 and vice versa. 25 man a raid leader needs to ensure buff coverage, needs to weigh if it's worth bringing player X who provides the buff but is a worse player than Y. Execution on most fights in 25 man is more difficult as movement and spacing needs to be more precise than on 10 man because in that aspect there is less room for error, where as on 10 man if you have assembled a decently balanced raid personal player skill is the biggest factor because while you can carry one or two even through progression in a lot of 25 man fights there is no way you can on 10 man. Frankly if as a 10 man raider your group has no raid wide CDs, and shitty buff coverage, blame your leadership Blizz said that 10 man was not going to be free epics and they should have planned accordingly.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby inthedrops » Tue May 10, 2011 8:05 am

My "Now someone who went the opposite direction (25H to 10H) please post" comment was a rhetorical one (if that makes any sense)

My point was that going from one to the other introduces some bias in itself. I'm not personally interested in which is more difficult when and why. I just wanted to make that one little point.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Hrobertgar » Tue May 10, 2011 8:53 am

I think 25m boss target having 3x health pools of 10m bosses goes almost entirely to size and not composition.

A typical 10m raid runs 2T, 3H, 5D although many do try to 2H for normals, the impact of going 4H or 3T is coversion of 20% of Dps to something else, which is a drastic penalty for what is often a modest gain in utility from the stacking attempt.

A typical 25m raid is likely to have 2T, 8H, 15D, for 3x damage output, and given that many buffs are now duplicative of eachother the 25m raid is almost guaranteed to have all the buffs, and multiple redundant CDs. Converting 3D into 3T for H-halfus results in ridiculous EZ mode for the 25m raid, but 3T is not ridiculous ez for 10m raid.

Blizz has stated repeatedly that raids should be built around the player and not the class so stating that a 10m raid can only work with carefull composition goes against that grain. And yes, there are fights where its easier to manuever 10m than 25m. Finally, at the end of the day there are reasons that world 25m progression seems to happen a lot faster than 10m progression.

I am hopefull that as the expansion goes on Blizz will discover how to tune things better to alleviate this difference in progression.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Arincia » Tue May 10, 2011 9:08 am

Maybe i should clarify what i meant exile. I'm not referring to buffs or X class for Y buff etc. I actually feel that for the most par it is equal for buffing all the players (almost all the buffs present for both formats). (if anything the changes made so far has benefited 10 more imo then 25). I wasn't complaining about that I was trying to say that sometimes you have more involvement in assigning more certain tasks (outside of what's normally done for that person) to a bigger% of people in 10s then 25 and the tactical/execution is different can be more involved in 10 then 25 at times. (again limited experience for me).

( Personly for me it has always felt more often that 25 man prefers to stick to a default strat kill/set up more often then 10's seeking alternatives and adapting to the alternatives for a boss kills. )

Anyways what I was trying to say that 10's may have to look at more alternative tactical approaches to boss kills and adapt to them more often instead of 25 rarely changing from its default tactics and that's what I was referring to when I said they required more preplanning. (i did not say that 10 or 25 was better just that 10 requires a slightly different tactical approach more often then 25 but i actually enjoy that aspect personally)

edited grammar and spelling.
Last edited by Arincia on Tue May 10, 2011 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Tue May 10, 2011 9:26 am

Hrobertgar wrote:Blizz has stated repeatedly that raids should be built around the player and not the class so stating that a 10m raid can only work with carefull composition goes against that grain. And yes, there are fights where its easier to manuever 10m than 25m. Finally, at the end of the day there are reasons that world 25m progression seems to happen a lot faster than 10m progression.

I'm not going to provide a blue post or a link, but everyone should be aware that "Bring the player, not the class" does not apply to heroic modes. It never has.
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Meloree » Tue May 10, 2011 9:51 am

Hrobertgar wrote:I think 25m boss target having 3x health pools of 10m bosses goes almost entirely to size and not composition.

Finally, at the end of the day there are reasons that world 25m progression seems to happen a lot faster than 10m progression.

I am hopefull that as the expansion goes on Blizz will discover how to tune things better to alleviate this difference in progression.


Why would you make the assumption that because world progression has been faster in 25s that it's somehow easier? World progression in 25s has been dominated by established long-term 25man hardcore raiding guilds, they were already prepared and focused and ready to attack the content. The progression focussed guilds and talent is vastly more established in 25mans. If progression was equivalent between the two formats it would have been better evidence that 10mans were undertuned.

Also, 25man bosses often have closer to 4x the healthpool of 10-man bosses for hardmodes. That tends to imply that Blizzard has taken into account some stacking requirements for DPS tuning (like 4 healers, or 3 tanks).
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby Belloc » Tue May 10, 2011 10:21 am

This discussion was a lot more relevant pre-10 man fixes. At this point, it'd probably be better to wait until Firelands to continue this discussion, don't you think?
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby exiledknight » Tue May 10, 2011 11:26 am

Belloc wrote:This discussion was a lot more relevant pre-10 man fixes. At this point, it'd probably be better to wait until Firelands to continue this discussion, don't you think?


Honestly we should prob wait until the xpac is over...although with the discussion actually having relevant points(for the most part) on both sides, that alone to me shows that blizz is at least doing a good job making 10 mans unlike they were in WoTLK. I think that as we go tier by tier blizz will get better at it...but moreso a lot of the 10 mans will be, all over when these discussions come up there are people with the mindset of buffs don't matter blizz said so....when they(blizz) never have, at some point these discussions will become mostly between solely hard mode raiders at which point the crap is filtered through, and both sides will still disagree :lol:
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Re: 10 vs 25 difficulty

Postby fafhrd » Tue May 10, 2011 12:11 pm

Belloc wrote:This discussion was a lot more relevant pre-10 man fixes. At this point, it'd probably be better to wait until Firelands to continue this discussion, don't you think?


Not sure that works either though. Pre fixes some of the 10 mans were definitely much harder than the 25 mans - 2 tanking Heroic Halfus 10 when needing multiple interrupters and a ton of healing and DPS compared to most 25 man Heroic guilds rofflestoping it at the same time for example. Would you consider that representative of 10 man difficulty, or of a lack of tuning in 10 man, since they went and nerfed Halfus 10 into the ground (likely making him too easy on 10 now).

I've only done 10s this xpac so can't compare, but like many people did 25H's till Cata, and the comparison from that is fairly obvious - having far fewer people who need to learn a new fight's mechanics is wonderful, filling a raid with competent players is much easier (I'm actually probably the biggest screwup left in our raid, which is a novel change). On the other hand missing particular classes that are really really nice on particular fights like a DK for HMagmaw or HConclave, A rogue for H V&T and H Conclave is really annoying. Especially when we get a kill using one of those classes, and then next week have that person absent, meaning we basically can't do H Magmaw that week at all because we'd not only have to find someone to replace him, we'd have to teach someone else to kite or learn a new strat. Being down one healer for a night usually means we can't raid, being down one tank means we can't do half the fights, being down one DPS means we might manage but need to adjust a bunch of our usual strats just to farm stuff - on 25H, we could adjust to a few people being missing on pretty much any fight, because the raid was large enough to absorb the change and bench would stick around without getting bored because there were more raid spots to keep them active. Other stuff like only having one person in the raid who can provide replenishment, having no option for the full NR buff other than the one shaman, only a set few who can do interrupts on Nef p2 on pre-nerf H Halfus (much easier with the tank interrupt changes now), etc make it really annoying to rotate players in and out, so there's a lot of having a boss drop the item that no one in the raid needs other than the 1 person sitting out. Basically all the problems you'd expect with only being able to squeeze 10 people into a raid.
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