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Osama Bin Laden is dead.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Brekkie » Wed May 04, 2011 8:41 am

Arnock wrote:So, will the members of SEAL team six receive the 52 million dollar reward on his head?


Even if they WERE eligible, they wouldn't be given the money because their identities are classified. Them suddenly becoming very rich would be difficult to explain.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Thalia » Wed May 04, 2011 9:48 am

That be awesome if they could sieve Osama's billions and distribute them to the families of all his victims worldwide.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Fetzie » Wed May 04, 2011 9:50 am

Brekkie wrote:
Arnock wrote:So, will the members of SEAL team six receive the 52 million dollar reward on his head?


Even if they WERE eligible, they wouldn't be given the money because their identities are classified. Them suddenly becoming very rich would be difficult to explain.


they could give them a pay rise :)
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Daeren » Wed May 04, 2011 9:55 am

As many other people here have posted, in some ways, he might be martyred, but how would you avoid doing that? I rather have a quick death as it was instead of a ridiculous trial (would be seen upon as one of their own "trials" where they execute people).

As for the conspiracy theories about him being dead, the alternative would be to capture him alive and keep him very well hidden. If he's still loose, it would be such a big blow to the US if he now released a video proving he's alive. So no, he's either captured or dead.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Halcya » Wed May 04, 2011 12:02 pm

My new internet hero: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Specifically:
"I have seen a great number of poorly Photoshopped images in my time as a photographer and I can tell by the pixels that it is a fake," said Kenna Lindsay, a New York-based photographer who works with composite images.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Sabindeus » Wed May 04, 2011 12:12 pm

Halcya wrote:My new internet hero: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Specifically:
"I have seen a great number of poorly Photoshopped images in my time as a photographer and I can tell by the pixels that it is a fake," said Kenna Lindsay, a New York-based photographer who works with composite images.


fantastic
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Fivelives » Wed May 04, 2011 4:41 pm

Halcya wrote:My new internet hero: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... index.html

Specifically:
"I have seen a great number of poorly Photoshopped images in my time as a photographer and I can tell by the pixels that it is a fake," said Kenna Lindsay, a New York-based photographer who works with composite images.


CNN got trolled.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Fetzie » Fri May 06, 2011 9:05 am

Apparently Al'Qaeda have confirmed that Osama is dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Brekkie » Fri May 06, 2011 12:08 pm

Some other common questions I keep getting.

"The description of the compound makes it sound like a fortress. Multiple concentric walls, barbed wire, Security Cameras, armed guards. How did something like that not stick out like a sore thumb as a place of suspicion? Wasn't there a Pakistani police station just down the block?"

If you ever have the opportunity to visit places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and the like, one of the first things that will strike you is that the locals take "A Man's home is his castle" quite literally. EVERY house is a fortress. That is nothing unusual. The only variation is the scale. Concrete perimeter walls topped with barbed wire, CCTV camera surveillance, ID checks at the door, and Nigerian security guards armed with AKs are commonplace even downtown in the largest, safest cities in the Middle East.
Whether it is a sign of the times (though the extents that are gone to are quite disproportionate to what would be rational caution), a throwback to the tribal Bedouin practices of the desert prince-lings they all still aspire to be, or simply a way of showing off affluence, the current adult generation of Arabs are obsessed with "security" to the point of paranoia. The rich and well off upper-middle class live in private fortress compounds with their entire extended family, the majority of the middle class share larger compounds similar to gated communities, and only the poor live in apartments.

The OBL compound sitting next to a police station and an IT office building was nothing unusual whatsoever.

When the zombie apocalypse comes, the Arabs will find themselves unusually well prepared.

"What's the deal with the commandos that did the deed? I keep hearing all these terms; Seal Team 6, JSOC, DevGru, Delta Force. Some people are saying how the Army was involved now too. Who are these commandos and what actually went down? The story keeps changing.

Here is where things get a little tricky. What you are seeing on the news right now is a little bit of revisionist history. There are all kinds of butt-hurt Generals playing politics over who gets what share of the credit, and since the actual people who conducted the raid are classified and don't care much about credit anyway, the waters have gotten exceptionally muddy to someone outside the community.

The reality is with these kind of things is that the earliest reports you heard are probably among the most accurate, because the bureaucrats didn't have time to start wrangling over re-writing the details yet.
As a relative insider, I have access the the Unclassified Cables that get circulated through the department, which allows me to sift out the info that was just plain some dumb reporter misunderstanding and actually be able to make educated guesses at how much is new details coming out and how much is simply revision to soothe ruffled feathers.

As a disclaimer though, I am merely an observer, I was not involved in the operation at all, I have no need to know regarding the classified details, and even if I did I wouldn't tell you I did because it is exactly that; class. This is just educated guesses on my part.


JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command) is an independent task force within the U.S. Military that is separate from all 4 branches (Army, Navy, Marine Corps, Air Force) and not under anyone's chain of command except the Secretary of Defense and the President.
Each branch contributes a representative organization to JSOC, that is then severed from their parent branch and becomes permanently under JSOC's independent control.

Those primary (unclassified) sub-organizations within JSOC include:
Delta Force (Army)- Expert hostage rescue operators.
SEALs (Navy)- All-terrain special operators, particularly specialized in clandestine tactical insertion, i.e., "being sneaky"
MARSOC (Marine Corps)- Newest JSOC organization, stood up only a few years ago by poaching the best and brightest from Force Recon. Primarily a ground fire-fight light infantry unit. Bridges the gap between SEALs and regular line infantry. They are who you use when you expect heavy resistance and don't need particular subtlety.
"Green Berets" (Army)- Detachments imbedded with foreign guerrillas or legitimate military forces whose primary mission is to train those locals. Green Berets are designed to have the capability to seed the ground for the creation of a revolutionary army in their zone of operation if necessary. Their training culminates with an exercise where they are given a group of non-infantry Army personnel and must do just that while they are hunted down by instructors.
SAD (Special Activities Division) (CIA) - Paramilitary "black operators" who wear no uniforms, carry no identification, and maintain deniability by the U.S. Government if compromised. Primarily recruited from the above sub-organizations.

There are other sub-organizations within JSOC, but those are the ones that matter. JSOC has limited fixed wing and rotary assets of it's own to call upon, but for additional support it relies upon the 4 primary branches.
You may be wondering where the Air Force is, but it should be obvious; they are busy with Stargate.

The Navy SEALS are part of what is known as the Maritime Warfare Development Group; DevGru for short. While there are approximately 2,200 qualified Navy SEALs, the number and nature of active operators and SEAL Teams is classified.
"Seal Team 6", is a catch-all pseudonymn. If you have read any of the Warhammer 40k books you'll be familiar with the Alpha Legion of Space Marines where every one of them all claims to be named Alpharius. It's the same thing here. Every Seal Team is "SEAL Team 6" if asked. The original SEAL Team 6 was a deception right from the beginning. When SEAL Team 6 was created during the cold war, there were only 2 SEAL Teams at the time. It was designated 6 in order to make the soviets think there were more teams than their actually were.

SEALs, however, are the best of the best. Their training is more arduous than any of the other JSOC sub-organizations, and arguably more than any other special forces organization in the world. The requirements to even qualify are mythic, and even then there is an 85%+ attrition rate during the initial SEAL qualification training program BUDs (Basic Underwater Demolition). The current BUDs class has already lost 190 out of 245 recruits, and is only 3 weeks in.
The entire SEAL training and qualification process takes in excess of two years before being a fully qualified operator.
In light of this, two teams of the SEAL's best are, along with a small segment of Delta Force, the only personnel to be considered "Teir One Operators".

Now, Operation Neptune's Spear (which resulted in the death of OBL) was conducted by approximately 20 Navy SEALs. That part is almost beyond question. They conducted the strike from their aircraft carrier Carl Vinsen, located in the Arabian Gulf. They utilized between 2-4 (4 is most likely) attack helicopters, at least one of which was most likely Army assets from one of the nearby Air Force bases in eastern Afghanistan. Based on typical doctrine, two helicopters were likely transportation for the SEALS, and two were fire support types such as Cobras or Apaches which rendezvoused with them. The two fire support helicopters would have conducted a rotating figure-8 pattern above the compound throughout the assault so that there would be one on an attack vector at all times while both remaining in motion to remain a hard target for RPGs.

A lot of what you are hearing on the news right now is revisions designed to down-play the seriousness of this operation as an incursion into Pakistani national sovereignty (because of diplomatic concerns), and thus the narrative being put forward is that of a relatively bloodless snatch-and-grab. They are changing the story to downplay the attack helicopters, downplay the firefight and weapons used, and downplay the unilateralism of the operation. By pretending like a lot more organizations where involved than likely were, they not only sooth organizational pride (mostly on the part of the Army), and make it look much more like a "business as usual Counter-Terrorism op" than a high-profile military strike into sovereign territory. It's giving Pakistan an out to save face gracefully and not look weak.

There are parts of this story that are pretty clearly bullshit, however, to anyone with knowledge of the background. One of the choppers went down in the compound, though with no loss of life, which probably means a glancing hit by an RPG, not "technical problems". RPGs were certainly fired at the U.S. troops during the operation, as confirmed across the board by local witness statements. By the current narrative is writing the RPGs out of the story because it makes it seem like a battle took place, rather than some kind of non-threatening police action. The chopper was grounded, and then destroyed with explosives to protect sensitive technology from falling into the wrong hands, as per standard operating procedure.
Since a chopper certainly went down, and at minimum two choppers would have been necessary to carry all the personnel involved in the assault, the new narrative of only two choppers also makes no sense. It was almost certainly 4, as the original story went, rather than 2 transport-only choppers, as the new story is going.

Eye-witness statements from locals can also give us further insight into how the battle went on the ground. Locals reported hearing two instances of 5-10 minutes of gunfire, as well as two small explosions before the third, large, explosion from the destruction of the grounded chopper.
This may not seem like a lot but I'd like to point out that there is a reason why a lot of combat scenes in movies are filmed in slow-motion; they are VERY fast-paced. A 5-minute engagement is a BIG firefight. A LOT of rounds can get exchanged in 5 minutes. Additionally, the two smaller explosions heard were undoubtedly shaped breaching charges, used by the SEALs to penetrate into defended rooms through the walls, a common tactic. This means that the occupants of the compound were resisting, and attempting to defend the compound room by room.

"Operation Neptune's Spear? I thought the code name was Geronimo? What was it? Geronimo EKIA?"

The name of the operation was Neptune's Spear. This should tell you something. The symbol for the Navy SEALs is the Triton of the sea god Neptune. This was a SEAL operation. Army can go suck it. Don't feel bad, the Marines are green with envy too.

Geronimo is the long-standing code name for OBL. E-KIA means "Enemy-Killed in Action". If you just said KIA it would imply that your own team of friendlies had a member Killed in Action.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Hrobertgar » Fri May 06, 2011 1:19 pm

You may be wondering where the Air Force is, but it should be obvious; they are busy with Stargate.


I thought SG-1 was classified, :lol:
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Sabindeus » Fri May 06, 2011 2:51 pm

Hrobertgar wrote:
You may be wondering where the Air Force is, but it should be obvious; they are busy with Stargate.


I thought SG-1 was classified, :lol:

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dantriges » Fri May 06, 2011 3:23 pm

Thalia wrote:That be awesome if they could sieve Osama's billions and distribute them to the families of all his victims worldwide.


Yeah sure.

His money is probably well hidden and in accounts that can´t be traced to him. Otherwise they would have caught him earlier.
They probably can´t just grab his personal money. He is from a wealthy saudi-arabian family after all, who would object to that. Saudi Arabia is an US ally.
And well even if they can, do you really think it would show up somewhere else besides government pockets? If it shows up officially it´s perhaps to recompense payments by the government to the families (think there were some), replenishing funds that were drained in the search of Osama, like the reward if it´s paid and whatever is left will disappear in a black hole, perhaps to get around budgetary constraints.

A government never gives away money for free.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Thalia » Sun May 08, 2011 2:02 pm

Dantriges wrote:
Thalia wrote:That be awesome if they could sieve Osama's billions and distribute them to the families of all his victims worldwide.


Yeah sure.

His money is probably well hidden and in accounts that can´t be traced to him. Otherwise they would have caught him earlier.
They probably can´t just grab his personal money. He is from a wealthy saudi-arabian family after all, who would object to that. Saudi Arabia is an US ally.
And well even if they can, do you really think it would show up somewhere else besides government pockets? If it shows up officially it´s perhaps to recompense payments by the government to the families (think there were some), replenishing funds that were drained in the search of Osama, like the reward if it´s paid and whatever is left will disappear in a black hole, perhaps to get around budgetary constraints.

A government never gives away money for free.


Hence the reason I said that would be awesome IF they could/would do that.

Just hopeful wishing.

I think if they would have found some of his money they would have frozen the accounts linked to it by now, it's been 10 years.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Fivelives » Sun May 08, 2011 3:01 pm

I rather imagine there's probably something on the computers they recovered from his compound linking him to his bank accounts. It wouldn't be entirely out of the realm of possibility.

The question is though, what would we do with the information? Would we give it to the countries "inconvenienced" by OBL, while keeping the lion's share for ourselves? I'd like to think that would be the case. It would definitely foster some desperately needed goodwill in the middle east if we did, and by taking the money away from al'Qaeda it would essentially remove them as a threat; especially since we would be able to watchdog the main revenue sources for them. Because let's be serious - I doubt that OBL would've been able to hide all of his personal money other than in al'Qaeda accounts. In a perfect world, it'd also allow us to identify other members of the terrorist network and remove them as a threat in a more ... permanent? ... fashion.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dantriges » Sun May 08, 2011 8:46 pm

A popular trick would be to hide your money in your wife´s accounts. Too bad if your wife escapes or divorces and keeps it but I think the probability for that is rather low if your husband is Osama.
Perhaps some relatives like brothers had some money keeping it for him. Blood ties are a thick bond.

I could imagine that the US turns over some of this information about bank accounts to the countries in question. You don´t drain several million dollars from the bank of an allied country without pissing someone off and well could be more or less impossible to gain access to it. I could imagine that a big share is in some of the usual suspects of countries who serve as cash havens.
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