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Osama Bin Laden is dead.

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby katraya » Tue May 03, 2011 6:20 am

laterna wrote:Care to elaborate? The point is quite valid, with no trial happening, us forces executed a man outside the law. Granted the man was a wanted terrorist, but is that still not outside the law?


I think you keep missing the point that their intent was theoretically to capture him. A firefight broke out and he was killed. Were both sides happy with this outcome? Sure. But you act like they killed him with poison or a sniper from a 1000 yards. If they simply wanted him dead they would have bombed the compound.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Geaux » Tue May 03, 2011 7:11 am

katraya wrote:If they simply wanted him dead they would have bombed the compound.


^^^ This

As a former Forward Observer in the Army I can testify to this. They would not send in trrops and risk their lives if they just wanted him dead. Hell they could pull the pieces out and run the DNA if that was the case. Bin Laden welcomed his own fate by wielding a weapon against U.S. Forces comming to capture him. Think about all the great information we could have extraced out of his ass by bringing him in alive.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Diocaska » Tue May 03, 2011 7:30 am

katraya wrote:If they simply wanted him dead they would have bombed the compound.


Found the following
By February this year they were ready to act. They initially considered bombing the site to smithereens - but Barack Obama rejected the plan as there would be no proof Bin Laden was dead. - Source


While it's not a credable source, you can't fault the logic. If you want to make sure your #1 most wanted man is dead, you make sure you can prove it.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby bldavis » Tue May 03, 2011 7:34 am

Do we know just what the US soldiers had planned to do?
no we dont

Do we know what went down?
no we dont

they very well could have had a standing warrant for his arrest, finally got close, he opened fire and was fired upon in return.
ask any cop or military member, you have deadly force used on you (get shot at) then you are in your right to use deadly force in return to protect yourself

i think this COULD be an intelligent discussion, but it is turning into a flame war and pissing match
at this point idc if this thread gets locked....
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Geaux » Tue May 03, 2011 7:53 am

bldavis wrote:i think this COULD be an intelligent discussion, but it is turning into a flame war and pissing match
at this point idc if this thread gets locked....


Well someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning....geez grumpy pants :P

I do get the feeling that some people in this thread are somehow sympathetic for Bin Laden....Probably just the type of people that are always anti govt or love to rebel against almost everything. Bin Laden slaughtered innocents and gave orders to murder innocent people (including muslims) and is responsible for the deaths of thousands. No sympathy, if you want it you know where its at... in the dictonary between shit and syphillis.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 03, 2011 8:05 am

It's less about sympathy and more about not believing it really accomplishes anything big, thus making every commemoration seem over-reactive.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Geaux » Tue May 03, 2011 8:17 am

It's always easier in retrospec to have a solution. We have already concluded that when Osama attacked US forces in the raid that the only option was to respond with deadly force. Can't take a bullet back once it leaves the barrel os a rifle. In life there are always better choices we feel we or someone could have made in hindsight. We have to trust that the trained professionals and the demoncraticlly elected officals are making the best choices at the time with the informations they have. War is harsh and cruel and if Bin Laden would have opted for a peacefull protest instead of murdering tens of thousands of innocent people, his outcome may have been very different.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby bldavis » Tue May 03, 2011 8:35 am

Geaux wrote:
bldavis wrote:i think this COULD be an intelligent discussion, but it is turning into a flame war and pissing match
at this point idc if this thread gets locked....


Well someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning....geez grumpy pants :P

I do get the feeling that some people in this thread are somehow sympathetic for Bin Laden....Probably just the type of people that are always anti govt or love to rebel against almost everything. Bin Laden slaughtered innocents and gave orders to murder innocent people (including muslims) and is responsible for the deaths of thousands. No sympathy, if you want it you know where its at... in the dictonary between shit and syphillis.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

its just at one point this was a civil discussion, i finished up reading what was posted before i crashed for the night
then i log in this morn to check wats going on and see the comment that "You people are either utterly clueless, fail horribly at reading comprehension, or are trolling. Probably a combination of the 3."

/facepalm
just keep it cool and dont start throwing stones at each other....
and if you must do it in PMs...

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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dantriges » Tue May 03, 2011 8:47 am

Interesting but ultimately pointless discussion if a jury would find Osama not guilty or so.

1.I assume the evidence is pretty solid. Also this guy claimed responsibility for quite a few more attacks on the US or its property.
2.I am not even sure if he would face a normal court. But I am not so well versed in US law.
3.Do you really think a normal jury would find him not guilty even if they believed otherwise? The whole US popilation is anticipating that the guy would face the death penalty. juror who find him not uilty would face a life of accusations (you let this killer out of jail) and probably attempts on his life by angry relatives of killed soldiers or people who died in the towers, angry service members who fought in Iraq, people who survived 9/11 or any other terrorist attack by Al Kaida. the govt would probably have to try thim by military justice, even if they would like a civil court, otherwise they would have problems finding jurors that don´t run away as fast as they can or unbiased ones.
4.I don´t think that Osama would claim Not guilty because he didn´t do it or stuff like this. He will probably use it as a platform to state his beliefs and make a big show. I think most terorists used their trial to justify their deeds not deny it. Pleading not guilty, didn´t do it would harm his cause and he spent several decades of his life for this cause.
5. He is a religious man who believes himself to be a soldier of Allah. If he gets the death penalty, he is a martyr in his eyes and gets a good deal in paradise. So weaseling out of this would probably get him a bad deal in paradise. He would trade away his privileged palce in paradise(or even a place in paradise) if he states he didn´t do it.
6. Well his name will live on in history and many people who like that, want a glorious end. Standing in trial and denying his deeds and the cause he lived for isn´t very honorable or glorious.
7. Even if he doesn´t care, people died for him. I don´t think that many of his supporters would approve that he states that he didn´t do it. Or people who had relatives who died for Allah, against the US, for Al Kaida, in his name or whatever. Someone would kill him within a few months. If he still knows much about current operations, his organisation would try to kill him in jail and blame the US for it. Probably they would try to do this anyways.

This whole thing is probably moot anyways, unless US forces caught him completely by surprise, bin Laden would tryto die in fighting or via suicide. Faster than getting hanged like Saddam or whatever nice death penalty Saudi-Arabia (he is a Saudi citizen after all, many countries try to get their citizens judged by themselves if they did something wrong Afghanistan (he was big budy of the Taliban after all) or Pakistan (he lived there) have in their legal code. The US could have used some ally to handle the whole affair and I think not one of them would have liked that.
Probably the commando soldiers would have handed him an unloaded Kalashnikov and shot him anyways (reloading and firing it afterwards). Win for everyone. Osama died fighting, being a maryr, instead of sitting in jail for monts or years and getting a death by execution and the US and alies don´t have the trouble of a trial. Most people and especially his supporters would say it´s staged anyways.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby bldavis » Tue May 03, 2011 9:07 am

iirc the Suadi's use decapitation :)
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby RedAces » Tue May 03, 2011 10:24 am

hey,

Geaux wrote:
katraya wrote:If they simply wanted him dead they would have bombed the compound.

^^ This
As a former Forward Observer in the Army I can testify to this. They would not send in trrops and risk their lives if they just wanted him dead. Hell they could pull the pieces out and run the DNA if that was the case. Bin Laden welcomed his own fate by wielding a weapon against U.S. Forces comming to capture him. Think about all the great information we could have extraced out of his ass by bringing him in alive.

Ok, this is an option I haven't thought about (if all information we received is actually true and they did no bomb the whole place).
And no I'm not trolling, I just don't think that killing him (even by his own fault) is the best option the US had.

Bye, RedAces.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dantriges » Tue May 03, 2011 11:12 am

Well unless they take DNA from the head or torso lying around, a DNA sample doesn´t prove much. So bombing the place, gather DNA evidence in the ashes wasn´t much of an option.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 03, 2011 11:16 am

I have a rather more informed perspective on these events, and am at liberty to share a little bit.
As background, for those of you don't know I am a U.S. Marine working at the U.S. Embassy to Saudi Arabia (OBL's birth country).


In an ideal world, we would have captured OBL alive. The reasons why should be obvious. Counterintelligence. You can't interrogate a corpse.
However, standing orders regarding "Geronimo-E" (OBL) were, and the orders for SEAL Team 6 surely were, that deadly force was authorized according to the normal Rules of Engagement and that no unnecessesary risks were to be taken under those circumstances in an attempt to effect a live capture.

SEAL Team 6 were the special operators sent on the mission. Team 6, another SEAL team, and the Green Berets are the only "Tier 1 Operators" in JSOC (Joint Special Operations Command). They comprise the best of the best of the best. You can be absolutely confident that they made no mistakes and took no actions without thinking.

In a 45 minute engagement, SEAL Team 6, supported by 4 attack helicopters, surrounded OBL's compound and moved to detain all those present for proper processing. As they moved in they were fired upon by the occupants who utilized AK-47s, PRK machine guns, and Rocket Propelled Grenades (RPGs), disabling 1 of the 4 helicopters.

Following proper rules of engagement and obeying the prerequisites for use of deadly force, the operators moved into the compound, eliminating combatants who used weapons against them. As they penetrated further into the compound, the occupants, including OBL himself, began using women and children as human shields behind which to shoot at the SEALs, and when cornered threatening to shoot them in an attempt to make the SEALs pause. OBL himself forced his own wife to act as a human shield for him as he fired at the U.S. service members.
Note that the simple act of picking up a weapon and firing it at a member of the U.S. military in prosecution of his duties ALONE is justification for use of deadly force against you. Irregardless of his entire past history, that one act was enough to justify his death under the international rules of war as agreed by treaty under the Geneva Convention.
In reaction to OBL's hostile actions, and his threat of violence against a non-combatant hostage (his own wife, as if he needed to sink to further depths of evil), a SEAL killed OBL with a single well-aimed shot to the forehead, just above the left eyebrow, which was the only target area of his body exposed from behind his human shield. The shot hit OBL by passing over the hostage's shoulder while she was still being held in front of him.

The body was positively identified as OBL by visual and DNA analysis. A picture of the corpse showing his head from the shoulders up was distributed as well (I actually got to see it, it is undoubtedly him). Zero Americans were hurt in the entire operation.
They are not officially announcing the identities or status of other targets also at the compound, for reasons of operational security. The operation has certainly provided a massive quantity of actionable intelligence for cleaning up vast swaths of Al Qaeda's remaining network, however.

At this time the body has been buried at sea.
This was done because the governments of the Muslim world requested that his body be given a proper Muslim burial, one of the major stipulations of which is burial within 24 hours of death. However, no country could be found which was willing to accept for him to be buried on their soil, so as a compromise he was buried at sea.
Flaunting this request would have likely been widely viewed in the Muslim world as purposefully and maliciously defiling the body, no less than if we tied it to the back of a chariot and dragged it around the walls of Islamabad. It would have caused rioting because of the disrespect for Islam it would have implied, and greatly counteracted the positive effects this operation had.
You can bet that we still have tissue samples for DNA comparison and a plethora of photographs of the body, and any other evidence that may be viewed as necessary for meeting the burden of "proving" it was actually him.



There's a great deal of misinformation going around regarding these events, their intent, ramifications, and real impact in the region. If you have any questions I would be happy to answer them to the best that operational security allows me.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Invisusira » Tue May 03, 2011 11:25 am

Was pretty much waiting for a Brekkie post. Excellent read. Hopefully it will shed some insight and put an end to pointless bickering and theorizing.

Further discussion is encouraged. Further flame wars will result in this thread getting locked.
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Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Brekkie » Tue May 03, 2011 11:31 am

One of the big reasons the compound wasn't bombed was out of concern for civilian casualties.

As evidenced by the circumstances of the fatal shot, Tier One operators have a precision unmatched by any "smart" bomb.
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