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Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Mannstein » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:40 am

Brekkie wrote:In addition, I have a bigger penis.

/jk
Screenshot or it didn't happend :D
/end Jk

To Jeffersonian000,
I understand your point of view, i absolutly agree that from someone that "when I que for a random, it's as a tank and only as a tank." you are absolutly right...
You talk about the tank PoV, i have tanked and dps almost all normal content and have healed a few... (that doesn't mean that i am more right than you, just different PoV)
And i absolutly agree with DPS is harder and simpler that tanking...
It's far easier to be a "bad dps" that a "bad tank", but is harder to be a "verry good dps" that a "very good tank".

Any guy here could /wall of text examples form HC pug to HM Raid bosses, and that would be what they are ->examples...
I can remember Aoe Agrooing adds with a PoM and a heal... and getting told to focus on the tank target O.o
In GB i can remember tanks taunting the frenzy add on 1st boss, slugging it out with the second "encumbered" boss and running into the explosive add on the 3rd...
Does that mean healing (on my priest) is easier or harder that tanking? No it means that a bad tank is a bad tank, and a bad dps is a bad dps...
IMO and let me repeat IMHO inthedrops's post is right on topic... :D
inthedrops wrote:Here's my opinion...


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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:13 am

Mannstein wrote:but is harder to be a "verry good dps" that a "very good tank".


There's really very little point in making statements like this, because there's no way to validate them. It's entirely subjective.

There's a certain threshold for being "very good" at either role - you obviously need a certain level of situational awareness, reactions, and an understanding of the core concepts of your class's mechanics for both. And more of any of those things is always better. But the returns on that extra amount of skill will be different for each role.

For example, starting from the "very good" baseline, a player with exceptional reactions and ability to plan ahead might find that they're excellent at DPS, which rewards responding to procs, ICDs, rotational planning around cooldowns, etc. Their level of situational awareness is "good enough" to not stand in fire and respond properly to boss mechanics. More wouldn't hurt, but the returns on that extra situational awareness might be relatively low. That player would probably find being an awesome DPS "easier" than being an awesome tank.

Another player who has "very good" baseline reactions and planning but exceptional situational awareness might find tanking "easier" because of their natural ability to keep track of the battle environment (loose mobs, boss positioning, boss buffs/debuffs, encounter-based danger periods, environmental hazards, raid health levels, etc.). They're still going to be "very good" at DPS, but it will feel more difficult to them than tanking.

So it's fairly pointless to try and say that either role is more difficult, because it depends entirely on the individual player's strengths and weaknesses and how those line up with the skills emphasized in their role. You could try and argue that the population as a whole skews towards being strong in certain areas, but I think that's rather pointless too - nobody has a robust enough data set to rigorously evaluate that assertion. And every individual has a personal bias (even me), so without such a data set, commentary is sort of worthless.

And in any event, I think that "role skill" is a red herring here. The disparity between tanks and DPS almost certainly has less to do with the amount of skill or difficulty associated with the roles than several other prominent factors:

  1. Consequences of player skill - it's easier for a less skilled player to "skate by" in a 5-man as a DPS than as a tank. Again, not because either role is more difficult, but because the consequences of being a bad tank are more severe. If the tank screws up a lot, the group can wipe repeatedly and/or never finish the instance. If a DPS screws up a lot (and isn't kicked), the bosses just die a little more slowly. It might've been a different situation early in the expansion where good DPS was critical to completing the 5-man encounters, or in timed ZA runs nowadays, but most of the early-Cata 5-man bosses can (and often have, in the case of bad DPSers dying shortly after the pull) be 3-manned by a solid tank/healer/dps combo.

  2. Pressure - because of the above, there's a feeling of pressure associated with tanking. In some sense, you're being put under the microscope, because any errors you make can manifest themselves in ways that the group notices (low TPS -> losing aggro, poor situational awareness -> standing in fire and dying, etc.). We might not notice it anymore as "career tanks," because we've grown accustomed to it or even enjoy it. But to someone who's unfamiliar with the role (or just not very self-confident), it can be scary and anxiety-inducing to be the tank. That all by itself is a significant psychological factor that discourages people from trying to tank - there are well-established theories about how we as humans have a tendency to avoid things that make us anxious.

  3. "Big Numbers" - I have a theory regarding this game that I like to call the "big numbers" hypothesis. Basically, big numbers are fun. We like to crit with an ability and see lots of digits pop up on our screen. You could even go as far as to put a Freudian bent on it - big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.

    And what role gets bigger numbers? DPS, of course. Unless you rig your scrolling combat text mod to show you threat instead of DPS. Then your penis is literally the size of Godzilla.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Mannstein » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:26 am

theckhd wrote:
Mannstein wrote:but is harder to be a "verry good dps" that a "very good tank".


There's really very little point in making statements like this, because there's no way to validate them. It's entirely subjective.


Correct me if wrong but when a discussion happens between diferent opinions, point of views and past experiences i think we are all talking subjectively.

Or am i supposed to present empirical evidence of my opinions? :D
BTW
/undocumented and unproved discussion
The question of competivity could be also something associated with dps.
When gearing/focus is tranlated "directly" into the DPS that can be compared to other player or one's self.
While in tanking some could say using full HM or normal gear, it's the same as long as the boss is down at the end.
So in theory the most competitive people could be more DPS inclined.
/end
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Digren » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:24 am

theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.

Someone, somewhere, has a new sig.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:43 am

TBH, i am really competative when i am tanking as well as when i am dps-ing
when i am tanking a raid, i am constantly trying to outdps my dpsers and esp my co-tank depending on the fight

in 5mans, i am doing my dammedest to be #2 or 3 on dps (and praying my group doesnt suck so bad that i am #1)

can dps be difficult? sure
can tanking be difficult? yes
can healing be difficult? oc

is there any way to tell for sure which role is harder? nope
it all depends on the person doing said role
for me, i find dps to be the hardest one, with healing #2 and tank far behind
but that is just me

i am one of those sick freaks that loves to tank, does so on every class that can, and even do it in other games without meaning to
hell i played the rift beta and found myself hating that game UNTIL i made a tanking warrior (and cleric...)

it all has to do with the player and thier state of mind and the group they are in
some people hate tanking and hate the responsibility that comes with it

i personally think that healing has more responsibility, esp now in cata, at least on most fights
however i can think of a couple where healing is the easy part and the hard part is dps (making sure you have the right target, making sure you dont break cc)

trying to say which role is harder for everyone is like trying to say which religion is the ONE TRUE religion
we all have our own opinions, and almost none of us will agree simply because of how we preceive things

for me, tanking is a blast, i love the pressure, i love taking control and i love the idea of tanking in general
i am the kind of person that if my family was threated, who ever was after them would have to walk over my corpse before my family would be touched, and i promise i would take a few of them with me
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Kelaan » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:20 am

theckhd wrote:And what role gets bigger numbers? DPS, of course. Unless you rig your scrolling combat text mod to show you threat instead of DPS. Then your penis is literally the size of Godzilla.

Thank you for posting this in a manner that I'd read it AFTER I'd finished drinking my coffee. =)
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:56 am

This thread is now about Brekkie's penis.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:01 am

Brekkie wrote:This thread is now about Brekkie's penis.

pix or it didnt happen...
oh shit
now we are gonna have to lock this thread after a soon to be suprise ..... um nm :oops:
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:05 am

There's really very little point in making statements like this, because there's no way to validate them. It's entirely subjective.

There's a certain threshold for being "very good" at either role - you obviously need a certain level of situational awareness, reactions, and an understanding of the core concepts of your class's mechanics for both. And more of any of those things is always better. But the returns on that extra amount of skill will be different for each role.


I disagree.

The reason being that, with tanking, there is an attainable plateau where you are doing the "Best job of tanking that is possible". The point where there are no more mobs left to tank, damage is being mitigated using the limited amount of control you as a player have, no DPS has threat issues, and DR cooldowns are being all used in the appropriate places.
Beyond that, there is literally nothing more you can do as a player to "Tank Better".

All that is left for you to optimize is your DPS contribution into the boss or burn target in order to shorten the encounter. And that boils down to the fundamental truth about playing a DPS as opposed to a tank:

"Perfect" as a DPS is unattainable. It is impossible for a DPS player to play 100% optimally and do exactly the amount of damage they should be capable of. So DPS ALWAYS has room to do better, to improve, to come closer to perfect.

A tank caps out in how much they can contribute. So do healers, unless you are able to push your performance to a level where your raid group can actually DROP a healer because you can cover the assignments of two people, their performance "maximum" plateaus too.

Only DPS has the ability to empirically differentiate between the skill level of players all the way up to the world-competitive level.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:05 am

bldavis wrote:
Brekkie wrote:This thread is now about Brekkie's penis.

pix or it didnt happen...
oh shit
now we are gonna have to lock this thread after a soon to be suprise ..... um nm :oops:


It'll be like Surprise Ass. Only Surprise Penis.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:13 am

Brekkie wrote:
bldavis wrote:
Brekkie wrote:This thread is now about Brekkie's penis.

pix or it didnt happen...
oh shit
now we are gonna have to lock this thread after a soon to be suprise ..... um nm :oops:


It'll be like Surprise Ass. Only Surprise Penis.

exactly......
/facepalm
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby inthedrops » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:49 pm

Brekkie wrote:The reason being that, with tanking, there is an attainable plateau where you are doing the "Best job of tanking that is possible".
...
"Perfect" as a DPS is unattainable.


I don't agree with this. It's hard to argue why without making the assumption that even the best tanks in the world aren't perfect. I personally feel that they aren't. In fact, I feel that no player is perfect.

When I say "not perfect", I'm not talking about people making obvious mistakes or missing an ability in their rotation. I'm talking about minuscule adjustments that had they been made, would have resulted in something beneficial to the raid.

There is ALWAYS room for minuscule adjustments. Even the tiniest imaginable portions of positioning, awareness, reaction speed or timing, while difficult to measure, do in fact exist and can be taken advantage of by those who see it.

Brekkie wrote:It is impossible for a DPS player to play 100% optimally and do exactly the amount of damage they should be capable of.


I don't understand how someone would think that it's impossible for a person playing a DPS toon to play 100% optimally and not a tank or healer. Certainly we can agree that there's always *something* a non DPS toon could have done better?

I can see that it might be more difficult to measure a tank's performance using metrics or statistics. But that doesn't mean they are playing the absolute best they possibly can by doing their primary responsibilities well (such as threat and not dying).

Honestly, if someone in my guild ever said anything like this to me I'd probably (A) be insulted or (B) ignore them.

Perhaps what you're trying to say is that, numbers aside, at the end of the day it's the DPS that has to get the job done to kill a boss. And the tanks (as long as they allow the DPS to do their job, and don't make the healers job a nightmare) are less critical to success. Even if I agree with that sentiment, it still supports my argument that every little thing a tank can do can have an impact on an encounter, even if it's small.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Flex » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:14 pm

I think brekkie's point about a cap at tank skill is solely on the defensive side. Use your cooldowns and get the positioning right and there isn't much more you can do. Once that is capped where does the attention turn? Increasing your DPS while tanking, which is often described as meaningless or trivial. So the one area in tanking that doesn't cap is the area where DPS operate all the time.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby inthedrops » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:31 pm

Flex wrote:I think brekkie's point about a cap at tank skill is solely on the defensive side. Use your cooldowns and get the positioning right and there isn't much more you can do. Once that is capped where does the attention turn? Increasing your DPS while tanking, which is often described as meaningless or trivial. So the one area in tanking that doesn't cap is the area where DPS operate all the time.


I don't think there's a defensive side plateau either. Perhaps I see a lot more potential than defensive cooldowns and positioning and the like. To me, even if you always used cooldowns at the best possible time, and perfectly positioned the mobs, there's still a ton of stuff that can be perfected|used incorrectly|timed poorly|forgotten to be used|etc.

Here are a few simple (albeit somewhat lame) examples: Now that WoG is on a 20 second cooldown, when is the absolute best time to use it? On who? And for what reason? Do you hold onto it for use on yourself? Do you snipe someone to prevent them from dying? Do you dump it and use the Holy Power for something else? Oh wait, that adds coming soon, better hold onto it to make sure I have something strong to grab it. Should I spend my GCD to Salv that pesky DPS right now? Or should I wait until a better place in my rotation? If I have to use my big cooldown unexpectedly, can I get away without one for a bit or should I request an external cooldown?

All of these examples have an impact on the raid that aren't as simple as just using a cooldown or putting the boss somewhere.

I admit that I'm being a bit argumentative. Perhaps I'm even being defensive. I just happen to object with any notion that suggests there aren't opportunities to tank better (no matter which aspect of tanking we're talking about).

I admit some of these things could be small potatoes, but much like min/maxing gear I think they're useful tools.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Amirya » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:52 pm

Jeffersonian000 wrote:What I've seen so far in Cata heroic dungeons: dps that can't/won't CC and healers that can't not go oom during every pull.

There's a flip side to this, as I play all three roles pretty evenly.

DPS that gets yelled at for using CC on mobs that are uncontrolled (prime example is I CC'd an uncontrolled caster mob yesterday that was smacking the healer hard, tank proceeded to break it, then proceeded to post a snotty "marks are for a reason" comment). Or DPS that do attempt to CC, and the tank completely ignores it and breaks it instead - such as the malignant trogg in GB - I've seen tanks break the CC on it time and again.

Healers that go OOM during every pull because the tank is unwilling/incapable of paying attention to party chat, mana bars, or location. I've seen healers sit to drink because their mana is under 10k, and there goes the tank, willy nilly pulling another 2 trash packs.

And yes, as the tank, I've seen same as you - fail healers and fail dps.

However, if you accept that tanks are considered the default group leader, then a tank should set some rules. "Healer, if you need me to CC, let me know. DPS1, this mark is your CC. DPS2, this mark is your CC. DPS3, this is yours. Don't CC until you see the skull."

Jeffersonian000 wrote:So for those of you posting about whose role is more difficult, let me ask you this: When was the last time you waited in que for dps? Look at all the posts above from people who plainly state they will not tank for pugs.

I don't care to tank for pugs, even though I've had some amazing luck. For me, it's becoming tedious. I still like dpsing because each time, my role will be different (rogue, mage, shaman, hunter, warlock, dk). Am I CCing? When do I CC? If I'm not on my hunter, do I need to wait for a hunter to trap pull? What do I do if the CC breaks and is unable to be reapplied? What do I do if the tank dies, the healer dies, or it's a given wipe? Even healing has its challenges still - am I druid or priest today? If the tank doesn't need healing, who does? What if we all do? How do I handle This Boss versus That Boss?

I think, at this point, I'm just rambling... :?
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