Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby Vrimmel » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:15 pm

inthedrops wrote:Here's my opinion.

* Being an average Tank is faceroll.
* Being an average DPS is faceroll.
* Being a really good Tank is difficult and takes skill.
* Being a really good DPS is difficult and takes skill.

It is much easier to detect average tanks than average DPS. Tank mistakes are usually more apparent, DPS mistakes are usually less apparent (didn't time DPS cooldowns well, didn't anticipate needing to move in X seconds thus having to stop casting, etc.). DPS mistakes usually result in less damage being done by the individual. Tank mistakes usually screw every in one way or another (e.g. reducing overall raid damage)

This is why DPS'ing seems "easier" if you want to be "average".

Being a better than average DPS'er takes just as much skill as any other role. It just happens that will all roles, most people are completely average and you can't tell the damn difference anyway.

The reason some tanks such as myself see DPS as being "easier" is because the countless mistakes we make while DPS'ing are difficult for others to detect, which reduces the stress level.


This is not really the point. What you say makes sense in a on paper normal distribution setting, but in practice there are a lot of unanswered questions. Especially when it comes to the progression of these difficulties.

- Which role has an easier job transitioning from dinging 80 to entering HCs with no previous experience?
- For which role would you put an overgeared character with an undergeared group to successfully clear a heroic?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems when going from doing heroics to swapping out a regular raider?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems on a progression boss if you switched one of your experienced raiders with a player with limited raid experience?
- Which role causes the most amount of wipes in a raid setting?
- Which role is more dependent reading theorycrafting to be successfully executed?
- Etc.

All of this can of course be very situational and dependent on the individual, but none the less it is a topic which requires a lot of thought.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby bldavis » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:22 pm

Vrimmel wrote:- Which role has an easier job transitioning from dinging 80 to entering HCs with no previous experience?
- For which role would you put an overgeared character with an undergeared group to successfully clear a heroic?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems when going from doing heroics to swapping out a regular raider?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems on a progression boss if you switched one of your experienced raiders with a player with limited raid experience?
- Which role causes the most amount of wipes in a raid setting?
- Which role is more dependent reading theorycrafting to be successfully executed?
- Etc.

All of this can of course be very situational and dependent on the individual, but none the less it is a topic which requires a lot of thought.


just my opinions, but

-dps
-healer
-dps
-dps
-tank/healer (depending on the situation)
-is this a trick question?

all in all, every role is difficult in its own way.
no matter the role, a good player is worth their weight in platinum
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required read

Postby inthedrops » Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:54 pm

Vrimmel wrote:
inthedrops wrote:Here's my opinion.

* Being an average Tank is faceroll.
* Being an average DPS is faceroll.
* Being a really good Tank is difficult and takes skill.
* Being a really good DPS is difficult and takes skill.

It is much easier to detect average tanks than average DPS. Tank mistakes are usually more apparent, DPS mistakes are usually less apparent (didn't time DPS cooldowns well, didn't anticipate needing to move in X seconds thus having to stop casting, etc.). DPS mistakes usually result in less damage being done by the individual. Tank mistakes usually screw every in one way or another (e.g. reducing overall raid damage)

This is why DPS'ing seems "easier" if you want to be "average".

Being a better than average DPS'er takes just as much skill as any other role. It just happens that will all roles, most people are completely average and you can't tell the damn difference anyway.

The reason some tanks such as myself see DPS as being "easier" is because the countless mistakes we make while DPS'ing are difficult for others to detect, which reduces the stress level.


This is not really the point. What you say makes sense in a on paper normal distribution setting, but in practice there are a lot of unanswered questions. Especially when it comes to the progression of these difficulties.

- Which role has an easier job transitioning from dinging 80 to entering HCs with no previous experience?
- For which role would you put an overgeared character with an undergeared group to successfully clear a heroic?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems when going from doing heroics to swapping out a regular raider?
- Which role would cause the least amounts of problems on a progression boss if you switched one of your experienced raiders with a player with limited raid experience?
- Which role causes the most amount of wipes in a raid setting?
- Which role is more dependent reading theorycrafting to be successfully executed?
- Etc.

All of this can of course be very situational and dependent on the individual, but none the less it is a topic which requires a lot of thought.


I think the context of my first post is different than yours. However, skill helps counter all of those. Experience the rest. Skill does not replace or substitute experience, but it does reduce the impact when said experience lacks.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Digren » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:51 am

This is still on the first page, so it's not really a necro, right?

I just read this story on CNN, and I found an interesting quote:
The best controllers, they say, maintain a constantly moving mental picture of all their air traffic -- what they call situation awareness. Maintaining situation awareness is critical to aviation safety, especially if there's a problem with the tracking technology.


That sounds very similar to what I posted back in March:
Digren wrote:To me the biggest item is one mentioned a few posts down in the thread - situational awareness. With this, someone is capable of being a tank. Obviously other skills are required - learning how to pace, manage CC, use positioning, threat, and cooldowns - but I think situational awareness is the raw or underlying talent that makes it possible to stay in the role long enough to learn the rest.


So, apparently, at least from my view, being a tank is lot like being an air traffic controller. Do we have any air traffic controllers here on maintankadin?
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Aerron » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:02 am

Digren wrote:So, apparently, at least from my view, being a tank is lot like being an air traffic controller. Do we have any air traffic controllers here on maintankadin?


Not quite the same, but the holy paladin in my raid is an air traffic controller who works at O'Hare. He's a damn fine raider with great situational awareness.

Hmm, maybe I should have him try some tanking duties ...
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby warden » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:05 am

I know a warrior that fell asleep on his keyboard in the middle of tanking a boss back in Naxx, and didn't respond to us calling him over and over on vent. I think that qualifies him to be an air traffic controller these days, doesn't it?
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:59 am

Back in 2009
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22814#p423762

I wrote Good Tanks know what happens next, and I still think that encapsulates it.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Mannstein » Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:11 am

warden wrote:I know a warrior that fell asleep on his keyboard in the middle of tanking a boss back in Naxx, and didn't respond to us calling him over and over on vent. I think that qualifies him to be an air traffic controller these days, doesn't it?


Naxx? Was his name elleck? If so i was on that raid... :D
Or karlj in Cataclism.. i wasn't on that raid but was on the vent... :D

/jk
So what is the dificulty with warrior tank, that they keep falling asleep?
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Meloree » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:50 am

Mannstein wrote:
warden wrote:I know a warrior that fell asleep on his keyboard in the middle of tanking a boss back in Naxx


Naxx?

So what is the dificulty with warrior tank, that they keep falling asleep?


It was Naxx. Falling asleep tanking Naxx is class agnostic. (Assuming we're talking about Naxx10/25).
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby warden » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:26 pm

Ya, it was Naxx 10, one of those 30+ min Heigan fights when only him and me on my resto sham were left alive and we were too stubborn to quit :-/
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:52 pm

Aerron wrote:
Digren wrote:So, apparently, at least from my view, being a tank is lot like being an air traffic controller. Do we have any air traffic controllers here on maintankadin?


Not quite the same, but the holy paladin in my raid is an air traffic controller who works at O'Hare. He's a damn fine raider with great situational awareness.

Hmm, maybe I should have him try some tanking duties ...


My Father is an Air Traffic Controller at O'Hare as well. However, I seriously doubt he would ever play WoW!
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Jeffersonian000 » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:05 pm

In regards to the OP, I happen to agree with him. It seems that many people posting on this thread (but not all) missed the point of his statement: From the point of view of the tank, this is what tanks are thinking about.

I only tank since Cata. Pre-Cata I was running a Prot/Ret pally, and would que for randoms as dps and only tank if the tank failed/bailed, because it was frankly easier to dps and a hell of a lot less stressful than tanking. However, in Cata, Blizz felt it necessary to make prot behave the same way ret use to, while ret gained enough mechanic changes that I just preferred staying in prot all the time, and eventually dropped my ret spec for a dedicated PvP prot spec. As such, when I que for a random, it's as a tank and only as a tank.

What I've seen so far in Cata heroic dungeons: dps that can't/won't CC and healers that can't not go oom during every pull. Not necessarily all at the same time (but on occasion, yes, all at the same time). I've gotten to the point that I prefer que'ing solo, just the get the +15% buff. This does make up for the just plan stupid antics people pull in random dungeons, such as running away from the tank if you pulled agro, pets pulling all of the surrounding mobs, and healers playing the "how low can we go" game with the tank's (my) health bar.

At first, I use to mark all CC's as well as the kill order, but I would have to put up with hunters ice trapping while I'm still marking targets, rogues sapping the skull (wft?), or have 2 plate dps + Warlock and only the Priest healer doing CC because they love MC'ing stuff while the others decided not the glyph/learn to CC with their class. It's a circus. Since this is what I tend to get, I simply mark CC for healing mobs and put the skull on the target I want dps to focus on, and then wait for the CC pull. Or I just ignore CC for mobs I can handle and aoe tank. Either way, I refuse to pull thread off ranged dps (hunters and rogues can re-direct, mages and priests can blink/fade/whatever, warlock can just do whatever it is warlocks do or don't do, etc). If a melee dps keeps pulling threat and I can't taunt it off (which means the dps is hitting the target, and therefore pushing past my taunt for gained threat), I will either hand of protection the offending melee or simply let them die, as a rez costs less than trying to heal their dumb ass.

Does this seem harsh? I don't think so. Most groups I get in Heroics are either under-geared and got in by having higher item level pieces in their bags (and therefore should not be in Heroics) or they know what they are doing and we get through the instance with little issue. Once ran Grim Batol with no CC (for one reason or another, the dps and healer all stated they could not CC), yet we took each mob fast and I had no issues with agro control. Another time I had a group in HoO that CC'd everything on their own and kicked me for breaking CC; last I checked, isn't it the tanks job to break CC on the mob they are going to pull next?

This just means that Pugs are a crap shoot: you either get lucky or you make your own luck.

So for those of you posting about whose role is more difficult, let me ask you this: When was the last time you waited in que for dps? Look at all the posts above from people who plainly state they will not tank for pugs.

Yes, tanking is no more difficult to do than any other role; but the general community agrees that tanking a pug sucks so much they would rather not do so. And why is that?

Because, form my point of view, the general community are average players looking for someone else to step forward and take a beating so they can get their loot or/and points. All classes can dps, but only a few can heal or tank, and even fewer players what to tank.

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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Passionario » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:38 pm

Jeffersonian000 wrote:So for those of you posting about whose role is more difficult, let me ask you this: When was the last time you waited in que for dps? Look at all the posts above from people who plainly state they will not tank for pugs.

Yes, tanking is no more difficult to do than any other role; but the general community agrees that tanking a pug sucks so much they would rather not do so. And why is that?

Because, form my point of view, the general community are average players looking for someone else to step forward and take a beating so they can get their loot or/and points. All classes can dps, but only a few can heal or tank, and even fewer players what to tank.


And yet, if we look at recruitment posts of successful raiding guilds, we'll see that the majority of them are looking for new top DPSers, and virtually no one wants a new tank. In past expansions, we could dismiss this as role distribution disparity. However, this is the age of 10-man raiding, and 2:3:5 is not all that different from 1:1:3 - if anything, it implies that there should be even MORE available DPSers when it comes to raiding.

Therefore, if we assume that the ease of finding a group for a tank indicates that tanking heroics is a task given by the mediocre masses to the strong, superior and more responsible few, then we must also conclude that the relative ease of finding a raid group for a DPSer demonstrates that the raiding community consists of average players looking for someone else to step forward and deliver a beating so that they can get their loot and points.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Brekkie » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:00 am

In addition, I have a bigger penis.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
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Re: Rare gem on the Official forums - On tanking - required

Postby Passionario » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:34 am

Jeffersonian000 wrote:In regards to the OP, I happen to agree with him. It seems that many people posting on this thread (but not all) missed the point of his statement: From the point of view of the tank, this is what tanks are thinking about.


People are discussing the relative importance of roles because it's the only part of the original post that is debatable. Nobody is going to seriously oppose statements like "situational awareness is important" or "in order to succeed, group members need to communicate with each other".

And then there's "On Leadership" section, which states that tanks are the only ones who really matter, and is essentially summarized as:

Brekkie wrote:In addition, I have a bigger penis.


Not to mention that the author is touting his work as "the fundamental philosophy of tanking" and "The Tao of Tanking" (as opposed to 'one tank's subjective view on the current state of LFG').
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