pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Aubade » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:41 pm

BlackNet wrote:Yes I have wiped on a boss with 25,000 health before. Using gimmicks like pre-pot to clean up slop is not helpful or a good idea. 674,157 total damage from devouring flames on Valonia in 3 attempts is HORRIBLE (even I took some as I was reading something and not paying attention where I stood) No amount of pre-pots is going to help save that raid.

Yes the lock bailed after halfus. Seemed my logs were glitchy, my UI did not even show halfus as a raid boss.

Besides I said drink up when the guild leader said green board lets go. There is no reason to give a count down, just drink up because it's going to start now.



You make me want to rage at you so bad.

Just do it. It's going to take you 3-5 seconds to say "Pulling in 5 4 3 2 1." Not only is it great for pre-potters, people can start moving, going into position knowing you're going in etc. I'm sure counting down gives even more dps than just pre-potting for your dps.


TL;DR
Stop being mean and do it.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby BlackNet » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:51 pm

Well all good valid reasons for a count down. I can see now where and why pre-pot WOULD be helpful. However a few things I wanted to clear up to and I don't mean this to drag things into the pits by what I say.

I don't use DBM,
"drink up" means to flask/potion/etc.
"People that have the insight to pre-pot are the ones that you generally don't have to worry about when it comes to fight mechanics." --- This particular warlock, along with other dps, was guilty of standing in the nasty yet many/most of them can pull some good heavy numbers. They are more worried about the numbers than mechanics. i.e. I die more than any other tank on the realm due to static shock on Omni.

From all these excellent replies, which I would like to thank everyone for posting here, I can equate the count down to a drag race start with all the drivers revving the engines with the foot on the brake waiting for the light to turn green.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Aubade » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:12 pm

Why don't you use DBM or an equivalent?

Because I guarantee you we will have a conversation about this and you will get it.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby BlackNet » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:50 pm

I don't use DBM, I am currently using big wigs. I have most of the crap turned off. I really dislike when things tell me what to do and clutter up my screen. It is my quest to remove all that crap and just show me the stuff I need to see.

One of the big reasons I hate DBM is I have seen more inaccuracies and bad call outs for abilities because the timer was off and there was no self-correction. Now I am not against boss mods by nature as many things are needed and good to have.

I think most all of them lean towards the overkill side.

With the new content stuff if you watch the boss you can clearly see when things are or will be cast/done.

Above all *I* am playing the game, not some plugin. I don't like any plug that tells me what to do and when. I have a brain and can think for myself.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Aubade » Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:23 am

BlackNet wrote:I don't use DBM, I am currently using big wigs. I have most of the crap turned off. I really dislike when things tell me what to do and clutter up my screen. It is my quest to remove all that crap and just show me the stuff I need to see.

One of the big reasons I hate DBM is I have seen more inaccuracies and bad call outs for abilities because the timer was off and there was no self-correction. Now I am not against boss mods by nature as many things are needed and good to have.

I think most all of them lean towards the overkill side.

With the new content stuff if you watch the boss you can clearly see when things are or will be cast/done.

Above all *I* am playing the game, not some plugin. I don't like any plug that tells me what to do and when. I have a brain and can think for myself.



ok ok, that's different, I thought you meant you didn't use any boss timers at all. that would've been an issue.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby RedAces » Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:32 am

hey,

Countdown Macro
Code: Select all
/rw Pull in 5
/in 1 /rw _-4-_
/in 2 /rw _-3-_
/in 3 /rw _-2-_
/in 4 /rw _-1-_
/in 5 /rw PULL!


This will output a nice countdown in /raidwarning (if you're not promoted just change /rw to /ra).

Our rogues want the countdown because they're buffing tricks and going into stealth (for the damage boost) after it, which isn't possible infight.
If someone asks for a minor details which doesn't even cost you a thing - just do it, why not ?

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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Passionario » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:57 am

I suspect that what you had there was a classic failure to communicate:

What you said: "No, I won't give you a countdown for pre-potting."

What you were actually trying to say: "Your request is noted, but at the moment, the bottleneck for our performance appears to be mobility and coordination, not DPS throughput. I would appreciate it if you could focus your attention on these areas. Thank you."

What the raid heard: "LOL, I'm not taking this raid seriously, and neither should you. We're overgeared for this place, so don't bother with all that stupid crap like pre-potting, target switching or moving out of Valiona's breath. Just STFU and faceroll, like I do."

Communication issues aside, I'm also not convinced that this approach is wise or reasonable.

Imagine your raid's priest saying: "I won't buff you guys with PW:F any more. At best, it just pads out your HP meter. At worst, it encourages sloppy play, allowing you to survive an avoidable hit that would kill you otherwise".

Or the master looter telling you: "I think we'll DE this epic instead of giving it to you, because the impact of one item on the raid's total performance is meaningless in the big picture. If acquiring it will turn a wipe into victory, then we're doing something wrong anyway."

Yes, in a perfect world everybody would play flawlessly, and kill bosses without having to rely on raid buffs, gear, tricks like pre-potting and precasting, or boss addons. However, we do not live in a perfect world.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby sherck » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:35 am

Passionario wrote:Imagine your raid's priest saying: "I won't buff you guys with PW:F any more. At best, it just pads out your HP meter. At worst, it encourages sloppy play, allowing you to survive an avoidable hit that would kill you otherwise".

Or the master looter telling you: "I think we'll DE this epic instead of giving it to you, because the impact of one item on the raid's total performance is meaningless in the big picture. If acquiring it will turn a wipe into victory, then we're doing something wrong anyway."


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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby culhag » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:35 am

Passionario wrote:By the way, it's not a "5 second spike" (unless you fail to warn your raid about the pull) for Warlocks and Shadow Priests. Due to the way DoT refreshes/updates work, the benefits of the pre-pot can be as long as a 30-40 seconds.

I was under the impression that ever since 4.0, DoT damage is calculated on the fly for each tick, not at the cast like before.
I think the potion's benefit only lasts as long as the buff.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Rhiannon » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:22 am

Damage multipliers/crit bonuses used to be "roll-able" in wrath, ie refreshes via mechanics such as mind flay refreshing SW:P would not update the SW:P's multiplier/crit chance so if you applied a SW:P with tricks, wild magic and then never applied it manually again for the rest of the fight, only refreshing it via mind flay, it would keep those multipliers for the entire fight. That was changed in 4.0 and is probably what you're thinking of.

Easy enough to test: I apply corruption to a dummy, it ticks for 1981. Volcano, power torrent and lightweave proc, it stills ticks for 1981. I re-apply corruption, it ticks for 2671. Volcano, power torrent and lightweave fall off, corruption still ticks for 2671 until it expires.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:24 am

lythac wrote:
warden wrote:
Code: Select all
/dbm pull 5
Kelaan wrote:It's courteous (and appreciated by my raid members) when I say, "Pulling in 3, 2, 1". I say it while I'm doing my DP, Inq, Exorcism cast, so that I know I'm not going to cut it early by much.


I can't see why it wouldn't work but able to macro "/dbm pull 4" and DP together?

I could. I prefer to keep it in my head so that I know that I am paying attention. (I also have no more macro slots left, but that's a different discussion.)

Malthrax wrote:Pre-potting is only going to help them if they're dying to enrage-like mechanics with the boss at ~100-500k health (depending on 10-man vs. 25-man), and ONLY if everyone in the raid does it, not just a single Warlock.


Passionario wrote:What the raid heard: "LOL, I'm not taking this raid seriously, and neither should you. We're overgeared for this place, so don't bother with all that stupid crap like pre-potting, target switching or moving out of Valiona's breath. Just STFU and faceroll, like I do."


I think this is really important. Sure, a pre-pot makes no difference -- whatever, some people have gold to burn (I don't). The important thing is, it tells your raid that you are willing to help (and encourage) someone make the effort to play better. It's the same reason we eat food or use tank flasks. I really doubt that the food will increase my raid's DPS enough to matter until we stop failing at mechanics, and same for flasks. (Well, DPS flasks are now actually pretty nice.)
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Worldie » Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:53 pm

To be fairly honest, not all classes can pre pot either. I can't for example, as prepotting as retri is actually a DPS loss (unless you run with a silly amount of rogues / hunters in raid).

Most of the time prepotting wont do any difference. It only would in fights as said where the kill or death situation is in the matters of seconds.

Not really many fights right now are of this caliber. The only fights where i can see pre potting useful are Alakir, Chogall, Nefarian and Sinestra (in their heroic fashions), as in all of them, the lenght of the "phase 1" can have a significant impact on the healers mana and actual raid stress (or in the case of Nefarian, where p1 is on timer and if you don't overgear it, you usually kill onyxia at 95> charge)
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:34 pm

Worldie wrote:To be fairly honest, not all classes can pre pot either. I can't for example, as prepotting as retri is actually a DPS loss (unless you run with a silly amount of rogues / hunters in raid).


Threat? Really?
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Aubade » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:38 pm

Meloree wrote:
Worldie wrote:To be fairly honest, not all classes can pre pot either. I can't for example, as prepotting as retri is actually a DPS loss (unless you run with a silly amount of rogues / hunters in raid).


Threat? Really?


Srsly.


Our Retri does it and he Just pops salv off the bat to ensure no accidental pull.

If it's a CD issue (not using it until 5 stacks of vengance/GoaK stacks/AW) Just use your second pot when the CD's align again (Usually during a hero phase.
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Re: pre-pot with a count down for bosses?

Postby Worldie » Fri Apr 22, 2011 5:53 am

Not sure what kind of tank you run with, but i use GoatK on pull, AW+Zea 10 seconds after for STR buff uptime, and in those 20 seconds i run up to 65k DPS according to WoL and inevitably overaggro even the best tanks out of there. Salvation hardly does anything when 2% of your threat is almost nothing (on the pull), and glyphed salvation only means you will overaggro 10 seconds later.

This ofc doesn't happen if theres 3+ misdirects available, which almost never was the case in my last 3 guilds as rogues, hunters and warlocks apparently have been removed from the game.
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