TPS problems

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TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Sat Apr 16, 2011 1:58 pm

Hello everyone,

due to our raid setup changing I have decided to move over from my DK tank to my Paladin tank. When I ran heroics with this char at 6% hit I had no threat issues at all, but I seem to struggle with threat in our raid group (mostly a MM hunter who does excellent damage) when using a gear set optimized for survivability. It is not readily apparent to me why. My gear is not exactly highend (as is the gear of the rest of the raid), but my DK isn't that much above my paladin and she has no threat problems at all. We have started raiding 5 weeks ago and are at 10/12. We are currently fighting Al'Akir.

I have spent quite some time reading through this website and other sources (mostly Elitist Jerks) so you can assume that I know the current theorycrafting. However, I would appreciate any feedback. Could it be that paladin tanks are on the lower end of the current TPS meters? Am I just used to DKs being very high single target TPS? Or should I get more threat stats and maybe change my spec by speccing into SotP instead of EG?

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance :)

(I have no idea if my char is automatically linked by this forum, so here is my armory link: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/ulduar/inaya/advanced. I optimized dodge / parry for raid buffs and I chose to not use the AS glyph since I would not want to miss the utility of a 3 target interrupt and silence.)

Edit: Oh, and I found the search function and used it. However, I didn't find any posts dealing with this particular question.
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Arcand » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:06 am

Hi,

I don't doubt that you've done your theorycraft homework, but nevertheless let's make sure we're talking about the same thing. Would you mind detailing your rotation?
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:05 pm

Sure. When pulling, I try to stay far enough away from the boss so I can use AS and Judgement before I (and the Melees) close in, then start by activating Divine Plea > Wings + AS > Judgement (hoping for a proc) > ShotR. MD covers that phase nicely. After that, I use CS on cooldown and fill with what is available. I pretty much exclusively use ShotR as top priority with 3 HP to maximize threat, unless I am very pressed for survival or I do have a lead late in the fight. I judge with priority to proc a ShotR crit and fill with AS > HW > Consecrate (rarely). As soon as Wings and Divine Plea are off cooldown, I use them accordingly.

However, I should mention that there is a certain gear disparity between me and my DDs. Nothing extreme, but they do have 359 weapons :) I guess my problem is mostly related to those idiotic talents that give people +60% crit vs. mobs at 80%+ hp. Any hints? ;)
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Re: TPS problems

Postby zaxon » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:39 pm

Do you have threat problems throughout the fight, or just initially? If it is only initially, then make sure you get your shotr in as early as possible and also pop wings just before you pull. So wings first, throw AS and judge on the way in, divine plea then SHotR. It doesn't matter that you don't get max use out of initial wings if you are doing 20% more threat with your first couple of skills, presumably you aren't getting completely steamrolled on threat so that little bit extra can make all the difference. Then on to your usual rotation.

If you are struggling with threat throughout the entire fight, then upgrade your weapon. The tier difference in weapons can make a big difference - go get yourself a soul blade, it made a decent difference for me from the 346 weapon. And it is the same as dps, the single biggest increase in my dps came from my weapon upgrade as ret.
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Mon Apr 18, 2011 3:28 pm

I assume that my threat problems are throughout the phase when MD is about to wear off and before vengeance fully kicks in. I am usually fine the first 15 seconds or so, then the DDs start to creep up and I am usually chased very closely, to the point where they are above me in threat without actually pulling aggro. If I am past that phase, I seem to generate enough excess aggro. I had DDs actually pull aggro off me on 1 occasion, although I attribute that to RNG wonkiness. I suspect that the problem are said +60% Crit talents when the mob is above 80% life. Which is why I am wondering if the little bit of threat that seems to be lacking could be covered by sensible choice of threat stats or a slightly altered spec.

As for the weapon... that thought was one of the first I had. I am looking for a soul blade, but I would not want to pay the 40k they cost on my server, so I have to wait until it drops off the BoT trash (we had 2 drops so far).
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Vort » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:40 pm

Wings right off the bat isn't a great idea. You don't have 5 stacks of censure, you don't have any vengeance to scale it with, you may or may not have a Sacred Duty active, there are quite a few reasons Wings should NOT be used on the pull but rather shortly into the fight.

I can't remember the exact numbers and stats on what is 'perfect' timing to use wings but I usually throw mine on at around 25% or higher vengeance to actually gain a decent benefit from it. Once your wings is out you shouldn't have too many issues with threat, provided you don't have rogues tricksing warriors for WoL or something stupid... ours did... once.
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Re: TPS problems

Postby zaxon » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:29 am

re: wings - it depends what you are optimising for and when/where you need to optimise. It's one thing to say "spreadsheet says..." and another thing to find that when you are doing the pulls doing something sub-optimal according to the spreadsheet is actually more effective. Particularly if your problem is in the first 10 seconds of the fight.

As for the original post, my suggestion would be upgrade your weapon and if you're still having issues ask for a double MD on the pull. Is it just the hunter that is pulling off you?

In terms of changing your spec, if you aren't using WoG regularly, swap those for the threat talents. I'm slightly more geared than you and don't have survivability issues so I switched from a WoG build to all the threat talents and have no agro issues at all.
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:39 am

You do have a point with delaying wings. I run with a hunter and a rogue so I agree that there should be little need to use wings right at the start. I have to admit that I also don't know how fast vengeance stacks to its fullest effect. Maybe I should get an addon to watch it. Thanks for the hint :)
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:41 am

Well, it is usually just the hunter who gives me trouble. He does use MD on pull. Tbh I am not a huge fan of EG because it is a random factor - which is something I don't like when tanking. Might throw healers off their "rotation" and lead to them using too much mana. I will try to use SotP tomorrow and see how my high my tps are when using wings at a later time. Thanks for the hints so far :)
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Calleana » Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:29 am

Quick point that tricks and wings don't stack but I believe tricks and MD do so you could get both at the beginning. I know the threat falls off but it should cover the intital period you're struggling with.

I normally time my wings after tricks has expired so I have some stacks of vengeance and I'm not wasting it with tricks.
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Aerron » Tue Apr 19, 2011 9:16 am

Inaya wrote: When pulling, I try to stay far enough away from the boss so I can use AS and Judgement before I (and the Melees) close in, then start by activating Divine Plea > Wings + AS > Judgement (hoping for a proc) > ShotR.


You may want to forego saving the 3 HoPo from DP for that first SHotR, and use Inquisition instead. AFAIK, it's the best way to spike threat at the start, plus it gives you Holy Shield for more survivability out of the gate.

For me, I go DP > Inq > AS > J, etc etc.

The issue is discussed by much better theoriticians than I here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30761
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Re: TPS problems

Postby Inaya » Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:46 pm

Interesting point. Actually, I used to pull using DP > Inq > AS > CS > Judge > CS > HW > CS > ShotR just as Inq is about to run out. I did this by intuition, seems like I got things right for once :)

EDIT: I noticed that I did things wrong, of course. Thanks for the link, I will adjust accordingly. Seems like I will have no choide but use the AS glyph. That should fix my problems :)
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