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Gaming Masochism

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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Discus » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:08 am

I guess I don't understand the "I'm 85, guess I need to get end game ready" mindset for characters that probably never will see the end game.

That's me :lol: I do it because, as a non-raider, there's nothing else to do. I've always been a gear whore and motivated to some extent by upgrades. Even if it means farming gold for weeks to buy epic BoEs it still gives me an aim. It does help make heroics /facepalm and gives you a head start when the next patch/expansion comes out but mainly it's just something to aim for.

However, myself and my small guild have mostly done everything we can now without raiding so we are a bit stuck. As someone said above, Blizzard have funnelled us all to raid in the end game and for some that simply isn't possible.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby halabar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:32 am

Discus wrote:However, myself and my small guild have mostly done everything we can now without raiding so we are a bit stuck. As someone said above, Blizzard have funnelled us all to raid in the end game and for some that simply isn't possible.


And that funneling mechanism has grown faster and faster. Without the social factor to the game, there's really nothing else there now (unless you are seriously into PVP).
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby masterpoobaa » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:50 pm

True that.
Got my pallytank to 85 and did normals and a few heroics. Got bored, kinda given up, farming dailies for rep and the H-mgt mount.
Have 320k gold sitting around, yet still cant be arsed spending 50k+ getting i359 epix for this toon which will soon be trivialised by patch 4.2.

Got my drood (herber/miner) from 80-85 solely through farming. But as soon as she hit 85 the impulse to work on her fell away - partially due to the price crash in herbs/ore, partially due to that i didnt want to have to learn drood healing/gearing all over again.

And looks like the same thing will happen to my hunter, who is currently 84.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Passionario » Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:54 am

Paxen wrote:Eh, there's a limit to how much work I want to put in to make the game challenging.


That creates a rather tricky conundrum indeed. On one hand, Blizzard no longer provides built-in levelling challenges. On other hand, while creating one's own sandbox style challenges is perfectly possible, it takes too much work and creative effort. Yet any complaints about the situation are bound to sound quite ridiculous. ("As a paying customer, I demand to be spoon-fed hardships and handed challenges on a silver platter!")

The simplest solution is to switch to a game other than WoW. There are plenty of games of all genres, AAA and indie, classic and modern, that have tons of built-in challenges to keep one occupied for years. And should you, upon satisfying your craving for difficulty, discover that said games are not quite as balanced and polished as WoW, you can always come back. In fact, playing a balanced 'diet' of different games is far more healthy and enjoyable than relying on a single title to satisfy all of your desires.

Alternatively, you may try to contact other like-minded seekers of challenge, cooperate with them, and get the 'hardcore levelling community' organized. Invent new and unique challenges for each other, keep a running tally of who completed what, write addons that will record your performance, and so forth. If anything, it will help to prove to Blizzard that challenge-seekers are not lone weirdos, but constitute a significant segment of the playerbase ("Just last month, our Heroic Mode Leveling Addon Pack was downloaded over nine hundred thousand times!") and thus deserve to be catered to.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:38 am

I dunno... it might just be me, but saying "I want a challenge, but am too lazy to create my own" seems very ironic. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something...
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:20 am

Skye1013 wrote:I dunno... it might just be me, but saying "I want a challenge, but am too lazy to create my own" seems very ironic. Maybe I'm misinterpreting something...


This is faulty reasoning. For one thing, we're all doing this for fun. Maybe I find playing games with a bit of a challenge fun, but don't find designing challenges fun. They're two different activities.

More thoughts on this when I'm done with Portal 2.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Brekkie » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:00 pm

What I find significant is that Blizzard actually made the choice to CHANGE their game from something it was, to something it wasn't, in the name of appealing to a different set of people.

In the gaming industry, that's really weird.

Most companies would have said...
"Game X is doing well in appealing to Group Y type of players. We want to expand our subscriber base to include customers from Group Z as well. Here, we created a new game that appeals to group Z. Now Group Y can play their game, and group Z can play their game, and everyone is happy."

Blizzard said...
"Game X is doing well in appealing to Group Y type of players. We want to expand our subscriber base to include customers from group Z as well. Let's CHANGE Game X fundamentally so that it appeals to group Z now, because we're betting that the vast majority of players from Group Y won't quit as long as we change things incrementally. They might be dissatisfied, but most of them won't quit."
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Sabindeus » Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:13 pm

Brekkie wrote:What I find significant is that Blizzard actually made the choice to CHANGE their game from something it was, to something it wasn't, in the name of appealing to a different set of people.

In the gaming industry, that's really weird.

Most companies would have said...
"Game X is doing well in appealing to Group Y type of players. We want to expand our subscriber base to include customers from Group Z as well. Here, we created a new game that appeals to group Z. Now Group Y can play their game, and group Z can play their game, and everyone is happy."

Blizzard said...
"Game X is doing well in appealing to Group Y type of players. We want to expand our subscriber base to include customers from group Z as well. Let's CHANGE Game X fundamentally so that it appeals to group Z now, because we're betting that the vast majority of players from Group Y won't quit as long as we change things incrementally. They might be dissatisfied, but most of them won't quit."
"WORLD OF WARCRAFT BREAKS EVERY RECORD MOST SUCCESSFUL GAME EVER CLEAR MODEL FOR DOING THINGS RIGHT RAH RAH"


I strongly doubt this is the way Blizzard sees it.

What I believe happened, from Blizz's point of view, is that WoW is an MMORPG with a lot of trappings similar or identical to previous games in this genre, that did away with a lot of the frustrating parts of other games in the genre. In doing so it managed to reach a much larger fan base, appealing to many people who had never tried the MMO genre before. Thus it continued to develop the game in that direction, making it more and more approachable. Remember that WoW started out as an oddity in the MMORPG space with how "easy" it was in comparison to the other mainstays at the time. So I don't feel like they're changing WoW into a different game but merely continuing on the path they set out originally.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Dorvan » Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:23 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I strongly doubt this is the way Blizzard sees it.

What I believe happened, from Blizz's point of view, is that WoW is an MMORPG with a lot of trappings similar or identical to previous games in this genre, that did away with a lot of the frustrating parts of other games in the genre. In doing so it managed to reach a much larger fan base, appealing to many people who had never tried the MMO genre before. Thus it continued to develop the game in that direction, making it more and more approachable. Remember that WoW started out as an oddity in the MMORPG space with how "easy" it was in comparison to the other mainstays at the time. So I don't feel like they're changing WoW into a different game but merely continuing on the path they set out originally.


+1

The difference between WoW now and WoW at release doesn't appear to reflect a change in overall design philosophy of the game so much as a development in knowledge about MMO design. Having never done an MMO before, Blizzard did something most companies do when going into a new area: rather than starting from scratch, they looking at what other companies were doing as a starting point for their own design. The best clues for the direction of the game lie in how much more user-friendly/casual/easy/whatever-you-want-to-call-it the game was compared to it's contemporaries of the time. We only see it as "hardcore" now because Blizzard has continued along the same design philosophy they set out on from the very first release.

Note also that Brekkie's argument assumes that people who started to play WoW at release prefer that style of MMO, an assumption I'm not sure is at all valid. When WoW was released, there *was* no equivalent of modern WoW out there. WoW's popularity on release shouldn't be seen as an endorsement of that *exact* level of "hardcoreness" (for lack of a better term), but rather has to taken in context: given the choice of MMOs, the least grindy one became the most popular...so they captured the market that liked that exact level of grind, *plus* a market the would have preferred less grindy, but which found WoW the closest thing available.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Arcand » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:54 pm

Dorvan wrote:WoW's popularity on release shouldn't be seen as an endorsement of that *exact* level of "hardcoreness" (for lack of a better term), but rather has to taken in context: given the choice of MMOs, the least grindy one became the most popular...so they captured the market that liked that exact level of grind, *plus* a market the would have preferred less grindy, but which found WoW the closest thing available.


Exactly. EverQuest made raids that took 60-80 people, and they got played because they were the only game in town.

Blizzard made 40-man raids. Raiding participation increased.
They made Zul'Gurub, the first 20-man raid, as an experiment. It was widely praised. Many cited its increased emphasis on individual contribution as a positive.
They dispensed with 40-mans in BC, made a 10 and the rest 25s. The 10-man raid became the most-visited raid instance they had ever done, and their player base increased some more.
They made an entire 10-man progression chain in LK and broke all their own records for player base and raid participation.

What I get from that is that people want challenging, epic encounters - they even want them enough to tolerate the aggravation of forming a big group - but if you cut down the big-group component, not many people miss it. The challenging+epic is what actually draws the crowds.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Hokahey » Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:27 am

Arcand wrote:
What I get from that is that people want challenging, epic encounters - they even want them enough to tolerate the aggravation of forming a big group - but if you cut down the big-group component, not many people miss it. The challenging+epic is what actually draws the crowds.


I agree completely with this.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby bldavis » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:57 am

Discus wrote:I guess I don't understand the "I'm 85, guess I need to get end game ready" mindset for characters that probably never will see the end game.

That's me :lol: I do it because, as a non-raider, there's nothing else to do. I've always been a gear whore and motivated to some extent by upgrades. Even if it means farming gold for weeks to buy epic BoEs it still gives me an aim. It does help make heroics /facepalm and gives you a head start when the next patch/expansion comes out but mainly it's just something to aim for.

However, myself and my small guild have mostly done everything we can now without raiding so we are a bit stuck. As someone said above, Blizzard have funnelled us all to raid in the end game and for some that simply isn't possible.

i know this is froma while ago, but this is me as well
i know i will never be a top end hardcore progression raider, but i still want the best gear i can, that doesnt mean i will bitch about not getting 4pc T11 bonus *glares at a guildy* (you know who you are)
but i still want the best that i can
just for an example, my warrior is at 349 ilvl avg, hunter - 343, druid - 346, and priest - 340
4 raid ready toons (at least BH ready for fogim), and yet i have seen 1 cata raid, and that is BH
i havent even gotten in on trash runs in BoT or BWD
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Arcand » Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:42 pm

And more of the above. I've likened myself before to a car lover, who enjoys driving but is happiest when he's popped the hood and is installing a new part, tinkering to make his baby run better.

The car can already hit the highway speed limit, so technically there's no point to improving its performance any more, but he tinkers anyway because making improvements feels good. :)
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby bldavis » Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:02 am

Arcand wrote:And more of the above. I've likened myself before to a car lover, who enjoys driving but is happiest when he's popped the hood and is installing a new part, tinkering to make his baby run better.

The car can already hit the highway speed limit, so technically there's no point to improving its performance any more, but he tinkers anyway because making improvements feels good. :)

this is a great analogy!

/approve
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Sat Apr 23, 2011 3:55 am

Just did this quest chain: http://www.wowhead.com/quest=25067

Now, I did have the two guild heirlooms on. Should probably not have worn them, but I did do them at 47, the minimum required, and they are marked as 3-man groups. They all went down without any chance of me dying (except the second one, a 70 horde priest mistakenly wanting to be nice dotted it, sadly). I'll probably level another char when I'm done with this one, so next time I won't wear heirlooms.

I think I'm giving up on the challenge part. Rather than going out of my way to find challenge I'll do them as they come, wear the gear I get for rewards and enjoy the click-to-continue movie.

When I want to play some game I'll find something else to do.
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