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[25] Sinestra

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[25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:10 pm

My guild is starting on Sinestra now, and I was looking for advice regarding the number of healers to bring and also the best way to handle Wrack dispels. I know right now most guilds who have killed her use 5 healers and have DPS doing the dispel, but do the changes coming in 4.1 force a change in strategy? Is it possible to kill it using 6 healers and have that sixth healer handle dispels?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:04 pm

Our first few kills were done with 5 healers, and 2 out of those were responsible for dispelling.
Were now running with 6 healers, as we still have the dps to get past the other phases without issues, and it just prooves more reliable in p3 to prevent deaths.
Still 2 out of the 6 healers are responsible for the dispells.

The ammount of healers depends a lot on your strategy.
How your handling adds in p1, dpsing eggs, and the dragonkin.
Depends a lot of how much dps your group can push out.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Brutalus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:56 am

Our first kill had 5 healers and a shadow and holy priest dispelling. We now use 6 healers and a resto shaman and holypriest dispelling because deaths in phase 3 seem to have a much more significant impact on the dps than you'd imagine because they lose the buff, and because in 4.1 our shadow priest can't dispel. It's kind of largely centered around what your strategy with the whelps is in p3 - if you're just going to stack up the first ten, aoe, then off-tank the rest you're going to want another healer. However, if you do what we do which is put 3 dps, a healer, and me at the back and kill the whelps one by one, the strength of the tactic is almost entirely based on how much dps your dpsers can push on the boss before you are forced to start off-tanking due to the buff dissapearing.

That being said, the dps in phase 3 can actually be somewhat decieving. When we went with 6 healers for the first time, the boss was at 42% when we lost the buff - there were 2 or 3 deaths in phase 3 that we had to ress. Compared to our previous kill with 5 healers (where we got it it to 22% as buff expired), everyone immediately decided we should drop a healer. We came back the next try with 6 healers again and had the boss at 23% when the buff expired. My point here is that it's probably worth seeing multiple tries and one or two where everyone is alive before commenting that the dps is too low and you can't use 6.

I guess it really comes down to whether your dps can handle it, really. There are some guilds that are even using 7 so it's definately doable.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:27 am

Brutalus wrote:It's kind of largely centered around what your strategy with the whelps is in p3 - if you're just going to stack up the first ten, aoe, then off-tank the rest you're going to want another healer. However, if you do what we do which is put 3 dps, a healer, and me at the back and kill the whelps one by one, the strength of the tactic is almost entirely based on how much dps your dpsers can push on the boss before you are forced to start off-tanking due to the buff dissapearing.


I'd be curious to hear opinions on whelps handling. If I am understanding how they work correctly, when they die they leave a Twilight Essence puddle on the ground. If another whelp dies in one of these puddles, then you get a new whelp spawn. Does the new whelp spawn also leave a puddle when it dies? If it does not, then it seems like a viable strategy might be to just kill a set, let them respawn, and then bring them back up to where Sinestra is and let them get splashed down while waiting for the next set?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Brutalus » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:43 am

Kihra wrote:I'd be curious to hear opinions on whelps handling. If I am understanding how they work correctly, when they die they leave a Twilight Essence puddle on the ground. If another whelp dies in one of these puddles, then you get a new whelp spawn. Does the new whelp spawn also leave a puddle when it dies? If it does not, then it seems like a viable strategy might be to just kill a set, let them respawn, and then bring them back up to where Sinestra is and let them get splashed down while waiting for the next set?


Yeah, that's right. Each whelp will leave a puddle the first time it dies only and after that it will die harmlessly. However, if it dies in another puddle then it will respawn again, although it still will not spawn one underneath it when it dies again. We muddled around and couldn't decide which tactic to use for a long time so we've tried most of them. Trying to AoE each pack down at the back somewhere as they spawn is nice and easy on paper, but we weren't able to get them down reliably before the next pack came and still do decent damage on the boss. We then tried to round up the first 10 (since melee are still killing the spitecaller and ranged are finishing off drakes at the start of p3 so no one has to time aoe the first 5 in time) and aoe them, but it was a nightmare to implement - I would die unbelievably quickly over and over again. You can see a video of a guild doing exactly this tactic, and off-tanking all of them after the first 10, here.

We then tried killing them at the back and when they got low having hunters taunt them out - but concluded it was more hassle than it was worth. We finally settled with just killing them one-by-one with 3 dpsers and a resto druid at the back - 2 hunters AoEing and MDing new spawns and an elemental shaman focusing the one I mark with skull. After the first 3 waves were dead, we just off-tanked until boss died. We found this to be the easiest way to deal with them, but it relies on your dpsers having the boss on low health when you start off-tanking, which can be difficult with 3 of them at the back full-time. Our video (from my PoV with the whelps in p3) is here, if it's any help.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:43 pm

Another question for Treck and Brutalus... do you glyph Divine Protection for this fight? It seems like it might be a good choice to do so, since it's the Spit damage that gets magnified, and you might get lucky and have it coincide with a Flame Breath also? Or do you not glyph it so that you're reducing the melee damage from the whelps as well?

Also, do you tend to wear Mirror on the fight or do you prefer double 372 Stamina trinkets?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:54 pm

Mirror + glyphed DP.
And i use them both for breath.
Its not really gonna be enough if you wanna survive better on the whelps alone, but it will make a big differance on the breath, yes its going to reduce the spit dmg by a whole lot, but tbh, untill your at about 50 debuffs, in my experience spit wont really kill you alone.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Brutalus » Wed Apr 13, 2011 2:11 pm

Yeah, I use mirror and glyphed DP as well.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:30 am

Thanks for the info guys. We had a very successful first night of attempts on Sinestra yesterday and even nearly got to P3. One of the things I am a bit confused about is the best way to handle the P2 -> P3 transition. It looks like (once we have the kinks ironed out) we will be able to get the eggs down in one pass, so I'm trying to understand the timing. If one tank is in the back with the Spitecaller, and the other tank has a Twilight Drake, how soon do you have before Sinestra is going to need to be tanked again? What happens if her current aggro target is out of range?

Do you have some kind of cleanup grace period where you can burn those last two adds down and then get back to the front, or does the Twilight Drake tank just have to take the drake up to the front and tank both her and Sinestra?
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:21 pm

As were killing both eggs the same time, i wouldnt really know how to do it in 2 transitions, all i know is that its a lot more complicated with 2 egg phases, and i honestly dont see a reason not to bring it down in one egg phase.

Pushing one egg phase we usually only get one drake, and 3-4 dragonkinds (i think).
Rare cases we get a 2nd drake, altho it hasnt happened the last 3 weeks, so dunno if they changed anything.
After the eggs die, we have everyone focus on killing the drakes/dragonkins just to get them down asap, since we want to have everyone dpsing sinestra as much as possible with the buff.

I think she starts hitting people again right after her "call flames" spell, that covers the egg area in fire again.
She will hit the current highest threat target in range.

For us, we have a dps DK/warrior tanking the spitecallers, since if, for whatever reason, they do the knockback you will die if you were tanking the whelps in p1.
Also while having the debuff stacks you dont really wanna tank the drakes eather.
I tank the adds in p1, and basicly just run around doing nothing in p2.
P2 doesnt last long at all tho, i basicly just help out a bit on the eggs.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby inthedrops » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:48 pm

We've been working on this a few nights now, consistent phase 3's. I don't think there's any particular rhyme or reason being how many drakes/spitecallers come out. Obviously, you get more the longer you stay in P2. Sometimes a drake lands really early, and sometimes not. Sometimes a spitecaller comes really early and sometimes not. It feels very random and I honestly don't think it can be controlled. We do two egg phases, killing one at a time. So we very often get 3 drakes. It sucks but we've learned to just live with 3 drakes for now.

Any tips for eliminating a 3rd drake would be a huge boost in progression for us. We likely don't have the DPS to kill both eggs in one shot without a significant strat/roster change.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Kihra » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:51 pm

Treck wrote:As were killing both eggs the same time, i wouldnt really know how to do it in 2 transitions, all i know is that its a lot more complicated with 2 egg phases, and i honestly dont see a reason not to bring it down in one egg phase.


Yeah, we won't need more than one egg phase.

Treck wrote:Pushing one egg phase we usually only get one drake, and 3-4 dragonkinds (i think).
Rare cases we get a 2nd drake, altho it hasnt happened the last 3 weeks, so dunno if they changed anything.
After the eggs die, we have everyone focus on killing the drakes/dragonkins just to get them down asap, since we want to have everyone dpsing sinestra as much as possible with the buff.

I think she starts hitting people again right after her "call flames" spell, that covers the egg area in fire again.
She will hit the current highest threat target in range.


Yeah, it was the second drake I was curious about. On videos I watched, it seemed like you could get that second drake even if you killed the eggs in one pass. It's good to know that's a rare occurrence.

Treck wrote:For us, we have a dps DK/warrior tanking the spitecallers, since if, for whatever reason, they do the knockback you will die if you were tanking the whelps in p1.
Also while having the debuff stacks you dont really wanna tank the drakes eather.
I tank the adds in p1, and basicly just run around doing nothing in p2.
P2 doesnt last long at all tho, i basicly just help out a bit on the eggs.


The knockback is only if someone fails and accidentally Stuns or Interrupts them? I was tanking the Spitecallers without incident, but rogues were handling the Gouges really well. Still, maybe I should be safe and just let DPS tank it. :)
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Treck » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:00 pm

Kihra wrote:Yeah, it was the second drake I was curious about. On videos I watched, it seemed like you could get that second drake even if you killed the eggs in one pass. It's good to know that's a rare occurrence.

As Paperplate said, they spawn randomly, sometimes they come very fast when p2 is pushed, sometimes they wait forever before coming down, i have no clue as to why, seems to be random, or just very farfetched as to their reason spawning different, id say dont try to control it, just play along, its not going to make that big of a differance eather way.

Kihra wrote:The knockback is only if someone fails and accidentally Stuns or Interrupts them? I was tanking the Spitecallers without incident, but rogues were handling the Gouges really well. Still, maybe I should be safe and just let DPS tank it. :)

If your tanking it, and not having problems dying from people stunning the add, then keep doing what your doing tbh.
We only did it this way since at first we didnt know we could interrupt without stunning it, thus we couldnt have the tank with the debuffs doing it, then when we figured it out, it wasnt always it worked perfectly, so we just said it was safer having a dps tanking it during progress, and we dont really wanna change anything as were getting close to the achievement now, rather just do what we always have done, instead of trying to change smth, even if its minor.
Like i said, if the tank isnt dying from it, dont change your way of doing it just cuz someone else is doing it another way.

inthedrops wrote:Any tips for eliminating a 3rd drake would be a huge boost in progression for us. We likely don't have the DPS to kill both eggs in one shot without a significant strat/roster change.


I dont think theres any way of 100% eliminating a 3rd drake if your gonna keep to having 2 egg phases.
We got about 5 sec left on the egg timer before they go immune again, but havnt actually failed on egg dps in a good while.
You really should have the dps to kill the eggs in one go, its not a tougher dps race than other bosses really.
You just need a few tries to sort the dpsers out so that its even, and so that you still have dps on the spitecallers.
Our firstkill was with 5 healers and 2 tanks, giving us 18 dpsers, not 100% sure how they are distributed, but i think we had 6-6-6, we still have 6 on each egg, but since the dps is a bit higher now, we run with 6 healers and i think we dropped a dps on the dragonkin.

Id go as far as saying id rather have hero in p2 to push it in one egg phase.
This means less chance for the interrupters to fail, no point in healing Calen (or whatever his name is), and you will also gain time since you wont have to dps drakes during the haste buff (not as much atleast).
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby Boyfriend » Sat Apr 16, 2011 5:09 am

inthedrops wrote:Any tips for eliminating a 3rd drake would be a huge boost in progression for us. We likely don't have the DPS to kill both eggs in one shot without a significant strat/roster change.


We never had 3 drakes, our transitions were 1-2 drakes and 2-3 spitecallers. I think by the time the 3rd drake lands you'd have your 4th spitecaller.

My theory of how the spawns in this fight work is that timers for whelps/spitecallers/drakes all start when the encounter start, and if you're in the wrong phase for an appropriate spawn then they just reset and start again. We used to bloodlust in P1, but when we switched from 6 to 5 healers we got through Phase 1 faster and consistently got 2drakes/3spitecallers then when we decided to BL in P3, we went back to usually 1 drake/2 spitecallers sometimes 2/3. You can also have whelps spawning just a second or so after the last spitecaller (just as caelen dies) or you can have them spawning an eternity into the phase.

The knockback is only if someone fails and accidentally Stuns or Interrupts them? I was tanking the Spitecallers without incident, but rogues were handling the Gouges really well. Still, maybe I should be safe and just let DPS tank it. :)


For reference, interrupts do nothing, the adds knockback when they are immobilized for more than 1 second, you can avenger's shield spam them with impunity, they are actually immune to interrupts.
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Re: [25] Sinestra

Postby baff » Sun Apr 17, 2011 4:34 am

A few tips which worked for us:

- As mentioned, pushing p1 before the third set of whelps is a must (and preferably before the second wrack goes out, but that is manageable). We use hero for this.
- You want to push p2 in one round. This means sending 5 dps to each egg while making sure that they have the buffs they need. Keep in mind that one round is enough for the spit buffs to be gone on whoever was tanking the whelps in p1. Also, should point out that you can get debuffs up on the eggs BEFORE they actually take damage.
- p3 is where a pally on the whelps can really shine due to our bubble removing the stacks completely. At first we tried dpsing 10 whelps and OTing the rest. This lead us consistently to 11-12% wipes. Our solution to this was to kill 10 whelps, and then kill another set of 5. At this point I would bubble the stacks off. Next, OT I OTed the next 10 whelps, and when GoAK was about to run out, ALL of the DKs used their army. I then ran to the back of the room so that when the armies were dead all of the whelps would travel to me. Using this setup we one shot it as soon as we reached that far in the fight again.

- Have your healers be really close to each other so whelp pick up doesn't suck, but not too close so that they don't all get owned by orbs. Keep in mind that you first get three whelps all coming from different directions, and then two more whelps that come from the same direction (for a total of five). I would always save my shield to pick up the last 2, and judgment/taunts/HoTR/HW (which sucks cause healers threat is too high) for the first 3. I felt MDs were generally useless, but we used them anyway.
- Your raid needs to be mindful of where the OT is. Running orbs into the OT with high spit stacks will cause a fast death.
- Wrack on tank with high spit stacks suck (can't wait for 4.1).
- Early deaths in p3 mean those players lose the buffs. Should really be avoided.
- And as mentioned before, glyphed DP + TB trinket ftw.
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