[10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Fetzie » Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:41 am

The only things likely to kill the tank are interrupt fails (worships and tentacles) or multiple healers being incapacitated simultaneously (worshipping, needing to run from a slime). Neither of these are fixable by gemming, they just mean that you need to get better at the fight :D .
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:56 am

I've complained about this both here and the Frustrations thread, but I don't know what it is, this boss just does something to my raid group. It's been a month and we still can't kill him. Multiple 3% wipes, I feel like we're not controlling Phase 2 as we should. Combination of the tentacles not dying fast enough/people not interrupting, ????other.

Our phase 1 dps is not ground-breaking, but we can push him over to p2 shortly after the 20 slimes die (or before if we BL early) no problem. Things just seem to slow down afterwards. The 4th add seems like it dies just as the new set comes up so we never get enough time on Cho'gall himself.

Previous nights we did a 'free for all' on the tentacles, where the dps would just attack and interrupt whichever of the 4 was closest at random. Last night we tried to focus fire them. We tried leaving our melee on the boss, we tried having the melee work on the adds and 1 of our ranged stay on the boss, but no luck.

We switched up some dps, added a melee for a ranged (due to a tank swap) and we got more dps overall, but then we couldn't handle the adds anymore. Our hunter kept complaining about getting MCed at the wrong time which would make all her traps be ignored by the adds. At one point we were even getting adds running lose in the raid on the first set!!

Whatever it is, I'm just extremely frustrated with this fight, as everyone know the mechanics at this point, we're just not executing.

These are the logs from our best attempt (but you can of course see the others. If anyone has any other suggestions, I will be forever grateful...
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt82 ... 443&e=2996
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Epimer » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:43 am

Shathus wrote:These are the logs from our best attempt (but you can of course see the others. If anyone has any other suggestions, I will be forever grateful...
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt82 ... 443&e=2996


I've had a quick look, and while it's very difficult to compare a log of a wipe to a log of a kill and get a useful comparison, your guys seem to be taking 150% more damage from Corruption of the Old God than on our kills from the past few weeks. This suggests that Phase 2 is lasting far too long, i.e. low DPS in P2.

Either that's just low DPS in general, or your DPS need to have it drilled into their heads that it's everyones' responsibility to burn down the tentacles as quickly as possible. We've had some wipes in the past where people have taken "everyone switch to adds as soon as they spawn, because they channel a 75% healing and damage done reduction" to mean "everyone but me, because target switching hurts my imba single target DPS!".

Obviously without knowing your tactics for specific attempts it's difficult to make definite conclusions, but on your best attempt, you had some DPS players who did 0 DPS to adds in P2. None at all. You have some players who did 115k damage to adds, and a couple who did 500k. Obviously there are spec to spec differences in the amount of cleave damage people can do, but either you have people who have been instructed to not DPS the adds (which I wouldn't recommend) or people are slacking.

How do you position in P2? We've found it to be very helpful to position Cho'gall on the stairs to his throne in P2, but only if he's not in Fire phase going into it (because having the entire raid stacked up in a Blaze is Very Bad Indeed).
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:03 am

For our best attempt (try 2) the DK was dpsing Cho'gall on p2 and ignoring the adds, which would account for the 0 damage. I believe on attempt 3, the ele shaman was on cho'gall only in p2.

In those attempts we were tanking in the middle of the room. We had tried the throne strat prior, but maybe I was doing it wrong. Do you tank him all the way up the stairs of the throne to the top? I was basically taking him to the foot of the stairs. It would group the adds up pretty well, but sometimes they would appear on the stairs and dps were complaining about being able to see them, so we just moved it to the middle.

The hunter is another story and a (mounting)source of frustration for a number of people, but it is what it is, and I'm doing what I can to try and improve that.

I've found (when there's not a beam on me) I can solo down a stalk pretty damn quickly (at least if i have holy power at the time), so I can't figure out why our dps classes are having trouble, other than we're just doing a bad job of interrupting the beams.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:12 am

Epimer wrote:Either that's just low DPS in general, or your DPS need to have it drilled into their heads that it's everyones' responsibility to burn down the tentacles as quickly as possible. We've had some wipes in the past where people have taken "everyone switch to adds as soon as they spawn, because they channel a 75% healing and damage done reduction" to mean "everyone but me, because target switching hurts my imba single target DPS!".

/snip

How do you position in P2? We've found it to be very helpful to position Cho'gall on the stairs to his throne in P2, but only if he's not in Fire phase going into it (because having the entire raid stacked up in a Blaze is Very Bad Indeed).


I'm going to second Epimer's first point I quoted up there. You can't leave any dps on Cho when tents are up. You need everyone to burn them down quickly. As soon as they come up, they have to become top priority.

A couple of things we do that help:
- At the end of P1, just as we're about to push him over, we drag him so he's up against a wall (or some guilds take him to his throne, as Epimer's does.) This limits the area in which the tents spawn, meaning less run time. You can also get a good grouping of them and then aoe them down.
- Whichever of our 2 tanks doesn't have Cho tries to get aggro on the tents. This insures the beams aren't on a healer or dps. Remember that tanks are generally going to have Fury of Cho'gall debuffs on them a good portion of the time, which is going to up the damage from the beams. If the beams are on the MT, you must get them off asap.

Usually if that's me (ie, not on Cho currently), I figure out which one our main assist is going to first, and go to the ones furthest away to get aggro on them. Everyone else except the current Cho tank, should be burning the MA's target.

- People tend to amp their anxiety in P2 .. they forget to use things like health stones, health pots, etc. Even small things help. As RL, I try to call these things out about midway through P2.

P2 really is all about the little things. We've had wipes at 8k before. 8k could be solved by something as simple as someone remembering to take a health pot mid-way through P2 (before healing goes out the window) and getting one more second of dps.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:19 am

Yah, originally we had had all dps on the stalks, but we weren't getting enough dps on cho'gall so I had figured to give that a try and see if it helped.

Aerron wrote:- People tend to amp their anxiety in P2 .. they forget to use things like health stones, health pots, etc. Even small things help. As RL, I try to call these things out about midway through P2.


I feel like in p2 i'm constantly calling "adds still up. kill the adds. !@#$*(#@$*(@ adds" like people figure, "well there's only 1 or 2 left, someone else will get em"

Taunting only works if the adds aren't actually casting the beam at the time, right?
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:40 am

Shathus wrote:Yah, originally we had had all dps on the stalks, but we weren't getting enough dps on cho'gall so I had figured to give that a try and see if it helped.

I feel like in p2 i'm constantly calling "adds still up. kill the adds. !@#$*(#@$*(@ adds" like people figure, "well there's only 1 or 2 left, someone else will get em"

Taunting only works if the adds aren't actually casting the beam at the time, right?


Yeah, they won't switch if they're casting on someone. I tend to AS, Rebuke, and HoJ (they are stunnable) as much as I can, as soon as they come up. Once interrupted, you can taunt them off.

P2 is sort of the opposite of P1. In P1, we leave one dps on Cho and send the others to kill the Big Add when it's up. In P2, no one stays on Cho, everyone kills adds. Even if he's below like 300k, everyone still needs to switch.

I would say we probably go through 4-5 sets of Tents before he goes down.

Are you guys 2 or 3 healing it?
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:48 am

We've been 3 healing it. We've tried 2 healing a few times, it didn't end well but it was usually due to things like "we didn't kill the slimes fast enough" as opposed to not having the through-put.

We talked about switching me to holy for Beacon good-ness with our resto druid on the raid. Would then require the boomkin to go back to bear, and we'd gain an enhance shaman and shadow priest.

My main concern is just that I haven't healed much in raids and it would take a big for me to adjust.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:38 am

We've done it both ways. First kill was 3 healers, HPal, Shaman, HPriest. Since then we've had more success with 2 healers, but it seems like it always has to be our 2 HPriests in that situation. Massive group heals are kind of key.

And a Prot Paladin on this is nice for AS on MCs, DG, and even a Radiance from time to time. Not sure that's worth giving up for trying to 2 heal it.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby TZpaladin » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:14 am

Hey Guys,
We are working on Cho'gal but dieing on the tentacles. I'm trying to convince our group to try two-healing and was hoping to get some input/support from you guys.

I'm new at using World of Logs but it seems like
(1) we should be able to reduce our damage taken significantly by avoiding void zones/corruption;
(2) 30% over healing is too inefficient; and
(3) with just 5K to 10K more dps, we move from being very unlikely to down him to the range where 80%+ of attempts are successful (based on this info/graph: http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Bastion_of_Twilight/Cho'gall/)

Here's some logs of our attempts:
http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/28248/ (Please look at the 10man attempts on April 12th and 13th -- ignore the 25man on the 10th)

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

-TZ
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Epimer » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:22 am

Shathus wrote:We had tried the throne strat prior, but maybe I was doing it wrong. Do you tank him all the way up the stairs of the throne to the top? I was basically taking him to the foot of the stairs. It would group the adds up pretty well, but sometimes they would appear on the stairs and dps were complaining about being able to see them, so we just moved it to the middle.


All the way at the top. But if we keep him at the bottom due to the phase transition coinciding with a Flame's Orders, you should still be able to get the tentacles down quickly. As for DPS complaining: they need to quit their bellyachin', frankly. If they're playing without nameplates and are complaining about not being able to target adds they can sod right off. Failing that, /tar macros. I have zero sympathy for DPS being lazy about target switching, because there are several raiders in our group who are awful at it (shields being broken on Omonotron due to Warlocks being too lazy to move their pet: nnnnnnnngh) and it makes me grumpy. It isn't difficult, it's just lazy or selfish play (as you say, "someone else will do it" syndrome).

Shathus wrote:Yah, originally we had had all dps on the stalks, but we weren't getting enough dps on cho'gall so I had figured to give that a try and see if it helped.


Yeah, but you have low DPS on Cho'gall due to tentacles being up longer and having more opportunity to channel a 75% damage done debuff without being interrupted. You will probably see a net increase in boss DPS by having everyone nuke the tentacles as soon as they pop.

Aerron wrote:We've done it both ways. First kill was 3 healers, HPal, Shaman, HPriest. Since then we've had more success with 2 healers, but it seems like it always has to be our 2 HPriests in that situation. Massive group heals are kind of key.


On two healing vs. three healing: I'm a massive fan of two healing, because adding another DPS cuts down on all the choke points on this fight. The slimes die quicker if it's a ranged you're adding. The Adherent dies quicker, so people can go back to the boss quicker. Phase 2 becomes shorter due to higher rDPS, and tentacles should die quicker too (another increase in rDPS and a decrease in healing required).

I really disagree about massive group healing being required. The only heavy tank damage phase is Flames Orders; pop a cooldown for each one. The only semi-heavy raid damage phase is Shadows Orders, but there's no raid damage afterwards so there's no need to have 3 healers going balls to the wall to get the raid back to full health as quickly as possible. If people are getting hit by shadow crashes... don't. If people are taking the AoE damage from the Adherent casting Depravity: be better at interrupting it. If P2 feels like it needs a lot of AoE healing, it's because there's too many people with a 75% healing debuff on them, or people puking on the raid. Adding a DPS means tentacles die quicker and there's less damage and debuffing from those.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:44 am

Right now both tanks are pallies, so we've got a lot of AS to throw around for interrupts and it definitely helps. Even if I switched to heals, we'd still have one so that wouldn't be too bad. I figured between HoRad and LoD that would be pretty good AoE healing for Shadow's Orders and like you said, just use a CD for Flame's order.

My only concern healing and otherwise in p1 is control of the slimes. Sometimes we're perfect, sometimes I feel we're a group of monkeys throwing poo at mobs ;) and the attempt melts down.

That and making sure the 2 off-spec dps we add can do enough and aren't dead weight :)
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:56 am

slimes are about 2 things - 1) getting some slowing affects on them early on and 2) making sure the big adds all die in the same general area so they spawn and congregate in a concentrated manner.

One other thing that really helps: Pushing him into P2 before the fourth wave of adds. If you are close to P2 and the Big Add is up, just OT the add and keep dps on Cho. Cho will eat the add at the start of P2. It takes a bit of timing, as if Cho casts Fester Blood right as P2 starts and you get a wave of slimes, that can be very very bad.

But it's actually easier than you might think to completely skip the 4th wave. Our raid group doesn't have any kind of massively impressive dps, and we consistently push P2 either before or just as the Adherent comes up.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:03 am

We have.... 3 AoE stuns, 3 slows and a knockback. Really, there should never be a slime getting through, which is why I get mad about it. The timing of the worshiping sometimes just throws us off.
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Re: [10] Cho'gall -- Normal Strategy

Postby Aerron » Fri Apr 15, 2011 11:09 am

Shathus wrote:We have.... 3 AoE stuns, 3 slows and a knockback. Really, there should never be a slime getting through, which is why I get mad about it. The timing of the worshiping sometimes just throws us off.


Worshipping can be a PitA. And in your hunter's defense, it is true that if she's MC'd when the slimes hit her trap, they're going to go right over it. The RNG is Godking in this fight, and sometimes it's seriously BS.

One thing we do for MCs is have everyone spread out to avoid crashes when the Adherent is up, but staying put ranged around the annoying middle star thing. That way they're far enough apart to have room to move, but close enough that MCs can be broken quickly. When you say "spread out!" ppl tend to freak out and run for Mars. Too far. And of course, everyone balls back up behind Cho the 2nd the Adherent goes down.

And just like Tents, MCs have to be everyone's responsibility. AS is good if they're in range, but they should be watching to break any that are out too far.
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