Remove Advertisements

Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Anything, including off-topic posts

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Shyrtandros » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:54 am

Keybind the power to number pad 0.. big easy to press button, takes very little time to let go of mouse and slap that big button without hitting something else.
"Warning: AA posts may cause severe urges to buy or rent games you may not have been interested in, known about or would normally consider playing. If you experience sudden urges to purchase said games please consult your wallet, bank account or significant other to see if these games are right for you and your budget."
User avatar
Shyrtandros
 
Posts: 818
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:54 am

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Epimer » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:56 am

Shyrtandros wrote:Keybind the power to number pad 0.. big easy to press button, takes very little time to let go of mouse and slap that big button without hitting something else.


...but then you can't move (properly) and interrupt at the same time.
User avatar
Epimer
 
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:54 am

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby cerwillis » Thu Apr 14, 2011 4:16 pm

Typing a letter, Piano, Guitar, I HAVE to look at my fingers, I can't play blind, with the exception of basic rhythm, etc. Saxophone is different for me, and that ability allows the music to flow through the instrument in a way that can't be measured. Keybinding gives you this ability in WoW, it's just not possible to get that clicking everything, you can't get muscle memory.

Edit: To agree with Theck, it takes a whole step out of your thought process.
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Brekkie » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:49 am

Something I posted on another forum:

With regards to those many-buttoned mice, it really depends on personal preference. There are pros and cons.

Image
Razer Naga Gaming Mouse

Pros:
Easily accessible bind options for emergency-style "oh shit" abilities that you need to be able to hit fast re-actively, without encroaching on your key real-estate of prime "mashable" buttons for your main skills in your rotation on your keyboard.
Particularly with wotlk, it reached a point where a lot of classes, hybrids in particular, simply had ridiculous quantities of skills that all needed binding, and a lot of players reached the dilemma of having abilities that felt important enough that they needed easily accessible, quick-reaction keybind positions, but there simply wasn't any space left in their keybinding layout without displacing more frequently used spells, or having to do awkward and slow alt and ctrl modifier bindings. Skills like a paladin's Divine Shield, or a rogue's Evasion, where they are used rarely, but absolutely vital to get off quickly when you do need them, often without warning. Binding something like that to "shift-equals sign" simply wasn't going to cut it.
Various different things were tried, up to and including foot pedals, but the most common answer players found for this problem was mice with many buttons.

The nice thing about something like the Naga is that you can place very important, yet rarely used, abilities on buttons on your mouse, allowing you much better ability to optimize your keyboard binds layout for your actual rotational abilities, while still allowing you to react to Bad Stuff with twitch usage of your emergency buttons.
Note that a common mistake lower end players make when they buy a mouse like this is to put their rotational abilities on those bindings. This is a Bad Thing. It makes you have to accomplish way too much simultaneously with only one hand. And however skilled with the use of one hand your average WoW player may be (LOL masturbation joke), it is not efficient and the human reflexes are not good enough to be able to handle that.
Which brings me to the biggest Con...

Cons:
By binding abilities to buttons on the mouse, you are basically giving your dominant hand two jobs to worry about instead of just one. You take subconscious attention away from being purely dedicated to movement. This can be dangerous.
It is for this reason that I chose not to use a mouse like the Naga in progression raiding, despite experimentation. There is a big left brain-right brain dynamic in the way your split tasks between each hand. I found I had the best performance when I let my left hand only have to worry about using spells, and my right hand only have to worry about positioning, with very little cross-over in responsibility (the one exception being spacebar, which I will go over below). One of the most important things to keep in mind when trying to perform well in progression raiding is to be able to relegate as much of your performance to unconscious muscle-memory as possible, freeing up the greatest amount of attention for what is actually going on in the fight and to the other people in your raid. When I tried to overlap task responsibilities between my two different hands, I found that it required more concentration, because what ended up happening is I had to devote mental resources to my left hand doing spells AND movement, as well as mental resources to my right hand doing movement AND spells. It felt redundant. My concentration was impaired. Even though the abilities I bound to the mouse were ones I used infrequently, i had to constantly keep in the back of my mind that that's where I had to go IF I had to use them, which requires just as much mental concentration as does a button which you constantly spam.


The final thing that tipped it for me is that I honestly didn't feel like the original rationale for mouse-binds was even true. I wasn't running out of keyboard real-estate, and I played a ret paladin, which has more abilities to bind than almost every other spec. It was people who had inefficient keybind layouts in the first place that were having issues, and these fell into two camps:
1)People who tried to cram all their bindings into one extreme side of the keyboard, as if the other side of the keyboard was off-limits and had cooties.
2)People who still used WASD (or ESDF, or whatever) as their movement functionality, and thus not only lost the use of 4 central keys, but felt like they had to be able to cram all their keybinds directly around those 4 keys.
Neither practice is optimal.

People who do the above are the type of people that love things like these:
Image
Belkin N52 Speed Pad
...which do absolutely nothing except possibly a more ergonomic posture for your wrist, but which simulate the type of keybinding layout people using the above two flawed systems were already using.
These are also the kind of players that have a ton of shift/ctrl/alt modifier keybinds, because they can't bring themselves to branch out to use the rest of their keyboard so they use endless modifiers of the same few keys.

Here is a description of a good keybind layout, based (loosely) on my own:
Image
Key
Green- "Home row", where your fingers rest. In this case, on numbers 3-6. Use these keys for your 4 most frequently used, rotational spells. They are your best "mash" keys for spamming. Note the central location on the keyboard.
Yellow- "Stretch" keys, which you can hit easily with your 4 fingers in an slight stretch from your Home Row. Use these keys for other commonly used spells, which might be rotational, or simply often needed. Place them in decreasing order of importance and frequency of use with increasing distance from Home Row. Good abilities for these keys are maintenance abilities like Life Tap, utility abilities like Paladin Hand spells or Aura Mastery, and movement skills like Sprint or Charge. Note how the index finger that is "home" on the 6 key has the best range of motion and thus is the busiest. Take this into account when you assign your spam skills for 3-6 on home row.
Blue- Thumb keys. Yes, that's right, share the load. Your thumb can contribute so much more than simply making you jump constantly until your guildies want to strangle you. (On a side note; jumping is almost ALWAYS bad. It has no positive effects whatsoever, and can cause negative effects because of the game's inability to calculate location on the Z axis. What this means is that when you jump, the game still considers you to be in the same spot you jumped from, until you land again, at which point for all intents and purposes you "teleport" to the new location. If you ever see someone that jumps out of a void zone or fire, thinking it's cool, they are actually risking death and taking unnecessary ticks. Never jump unless you have to.) Good abilities for thumb keybinds are things like DPS cooldowns and trinket-pop macros that you need to time precisely, and thus want away from somewhere you could fat finger them. I'll talk about the spacebar later.
Red- This is where I put my "Oh Crap" buttons. On the Function keys. They are great because you will not fat finger them, since they are up rather than down from Home Row, unlike every other button, so it is always a conscious act to hit something up there, and yet they are easily and quickly accessible for clutch reactions because they are immediately adjacent to Home Row. Note that there are more buttons highlighted in red than most classes HAVE "Oh Shit" skills for. Don't be afraid to bind two or even three adjacent buttons to the same skill, so that you can just mindlessly OMGflop in that general direction and be certain that your life-saving ability will go off.
Purple- Super Stretch. Put stuff here that you never, ever, ever want to fat-finger. Like Heroism/Bloodlust. Or Divine Intervention. Or Taunt for non-tanks (I once lost a Tribute to Immortality because the DPS Deathknight accidentally taunted Anub'Arak at less than 1%).
White- If you absolutely HAVE to keep your Run Forward bound to a key, put it here. I kept these two bound to Run Forward when i played a healer to allow me to still me moving when I simultaneously needed to mouse over grid to heal on the run.

Spacebar.
Spacebar deserves a special mention because I use it differently from most people. For me, spacebar is "S Key", a.k.a. "back up slowly". The reason for this was originally because I had to do that quite frequently as a main tank, but it's main usefulness is not for allowing me the ability to back up, but rather the ability to instantly stop, and to pivot on a dime rapidly.
Image
Logitech MX518 Gaming Mouse
This is the mouse I used for years. The two thumb buttons I bound to Strafe Left and Strafe Right. I mouse-look turned and moved forward by holding down both Left and Right mouse buttons, and could simultaneously strafe with my thumb. Spacebar and my left hand thumb allowed me to instantly stop forward motion, make instant, sharp turns, and pivot on a dime. It also allowed me incredible control over my exact positioning and facing by combining both the double-mouse-button forward motion with the counteracting spacebar backward motion, something which is incredibly important in the dangerous world of Melee DPS.

(p.s. Before you ask, I had Jump bound to Alt Spacebar, for the whopping TWO fights in the history of the game that jumping was necessary.)

Hope I answered your question fully.
I guess in conclusion it comes down to your own personal playstyle and what you decide works best for you. I'm not going to tell you one way is absolutely better or worse. I just pass on what worked for me and you can take or leave what pieces you find compatible with what you want to accomplish.
What's most important is that you understand the Why's behind the choices. Someone who just follows what the pros do without knowing the reasons is an idiot.


One final note about Mice.

Most marketed "Gaming Mice" are more designed for "twitch" First Person Shooter games, where your mouse cursor is your targeting reticle. The specs on these type of mice do not really do all that much for you in WoW, because it is not a cursor-based targeting combat system.

You can get by just fine with a 25-30 dollar mouse you can buy at Best Buy. Just make sure you never use a wireless mouse, because that introduces unnecessary artificial lag.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Fetzie » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:23 am

You can get by just fine with a 25-30 dollar mouse you can buy at Best Buy. Just make sure you never use a wireless mouse, because that introduces unnecessary artificial lag.


plus the risk of its batteries running out infight is too high IMO.
Fetzie | Protection Paladin | EU-Kazzak
Author of the TankSpot Protection Paladin Guide
Image
Sagara wrote:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.

bldavis wrote:we are trying to extend it as long as we can...it just never seems to last very long
User avatar
Fetzie
 
Posts: 2173
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 am
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:48 am

Interesting. I like that keyboard layout, but I'm not sure I'd ever be able to adapt to it. I've been typing too long, and too used to FPS games where motion was handled by WASD (or in my case ESDF). It also doesn't seem like it's very easy to reach the modifier keys with that hand positioning - for example, if I arrange my hand that way, it's extremely uncomfortable to hit Alt, and basically impossible to hit Shift or Control. How you hit Alt+Spacebar is beyond me. But I have relatively small hands - putting my pinky on 3 and index finger on 6, I can only barely reach ` with my pinky or 9/I with my index finger, even on a compact laptop keyboard. Reaching O/K/L is basically impossible for me.

It would seem to me like that would give you many fewer key binding options. Example: assuming you can't hit alt in your situation, you have 8 red keys, 4 green keys, 10 yellow keys, 2 white keys, and 5 blue keys. If we include the 3 purple keys (which I also can't reach without taking my hands off 3-6, which would be bad since repositioning my hand afterward would take longer since it's not a natural typing position), that's a total of 32 keys available, not counting your mouse (which is another 5 buttons, mouse3-mouse8).

In my scheme, I have ESDF(AG) for movement, so those keys are out. But I have Q, W, R, T, Y, H, B, V, C, X, Z, and 1-5, (16 buttons) along with shift and alt variants for each (x3=48) and shift/alt variants for ESDF(AG) (+12). And on top of that, I can use shift and alt variations on mouse3-mouse8, giving me another 10. That's a total of about 70 key binds available. I don't use them all, of course, as some of those are still bound to interface functions (Shift+Q is quest, for example, T is still toggle auto-attack, shift+B is open all bags, etc.).

I do agree with you about separating motion and your primary rotation buttons, even though I have them reversed (motion on keyboard, most of the rotation on mouse). Though I think it might be a little different for casters since spells with a cast time are mutually exclusive with movement. I've found little trouble using shift+S as a cast-time filler spell on most of my alts.

I'm actually curious what you think about my movement scheme, given that you seem pretty negative about movement on the keyboard. Maybe it's about equivalent, since I'm still separating my motion and rotational abilities. I've obviously put a lot of thought into the placement and choice of abilities, but I've also built it around keeping my hands in the default typing position for comfort and familiarity reasons. I do enough typing that I'm very fast and efficient hitting keys in the default hand positions, so leveraging that advantage in-game probably makes sense.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7710
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:26 am

Brekkie wrote:Cons:
By binding abilities to buttons on the mouse, you are basically giving your dominant hand two jobs to worry about instead of just one. You take subconscious attention away from being purely dedicated to movement. This can be dangerous.


You use the mouse with your dominant hand? Crazy person.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:35 am

Meloree wrote:You use the mouse with your dominant hand? Crazy person.


Wait, what? Isn't this typical?
Image
User avatar
fuzzygeek
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5130
Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:58 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:36 am

Brekkie wrote:White- If you absolutely HAVE to keep your Run Forward bound to a key, put it here. I kept these two bound to Run Forward when i played a healer to allow me to still me moving when I simultaneously needed to mouse over grid to heal on the run.

Implying here that you don't believe it's necessary to have run forward keybound, so I have to ask: if you unbound run from the keyboard and move using the double-mouse-press, how would you handle moving and looking around at the same time?
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6810
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:47 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Meloree wrote:You use the mouse with your dominant hand? Crazy person.


Wait, what? Isn't this typical?


I'm sinister, but I use the mouse with my right hand, because I learned that way all those years ago. I was poking fun :P
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:53 am

Meloree wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Meloree wrote:You use the mouse with your dominant hand? Crazy person.


Wait, what? Isn't this typical?


I'm sinister, but I use the mouse with my right hand, because I learned that way all those years ago. I was poking fun :P


I just thought most people used a mouse with their right hand since that's just how computers were always set up (mouse to the right of the keyboard).

I'm left-handed, but I never used it on the mouse, so it's always awkward if I try to do that.
Shathus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:53 am

Meloree wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Meloree wrote:You use the mouse with your dominant hand? Crazy person.


Wait, what? Isn't this typical?


I'm sinister, but I use the mouse with my right hand, because I learned that way all those years ago. I was poking fun :P


I just thought most people used a mouse with their right hand since that's just how computers were always set up (mouse to the right of the keyboard).

I'm left-handed, but I never used it on the mouse, so it's always awkward if I try to do that.
Shathus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:02 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Brekkie » Fri Apr 15, 2011 10:06 am

@Theckhd
-I sort of angle my hand diagonally right slightly and press both alt and spacebar down with my thumb only. To be quite honest the only reason I even had it bound at all was for Thaddius. I would probably keep it as plain spacebar if I was playing a hunter because of the interaction between disengage and jumping, but I don't play a hunter.

-Modifiers are something I simply don't use very much. I don't like them for a couple reasons. For one, it's easier to mess up or be too slow with a two-key simultaneous combo than it is a single key, and I try to minimize the possibility of error. Additionally, having modifier keys makes your keybinding setup have the extra dimension of having to make sure that if you mess up the modifier and just press the base key that key isn't going to cast something disastrous, i.e. it isn't wise to have Q bound to Divine Shield but Shift-Q bound to Taunt, for example. It's not a pervasive problem, but it makes what abilities you can bind where somewhat more limiting. I think the biggest reason I dislike using modifiers is because Shift, Ctrl, and Alt surround that devastating little button, Windows, which makes you tab out if you accidentally hit it instead.
Plus I think my brain just finds it easier to process in a panic situation when each button only ever does one thing all the time exclusively.

-I'd argue that 32 buttons are more than enough for any class to bind anything they will realistically use, and if it isn't I'd question whether the player is making effective macro usage.

-Movement. I assume that, though you may control actual locomotion with ESDF, you presumably "steer" with mouse-look. This is what I mean when I talk about splitting the task of movement between mouse and keyboard. Since keyboard turning isn't optimal, you have to steer with your mouse, and since you have to steer with your mouse, you might as well put the gas pedal there too and buy yourself back 6 keys in the middle of your keybinding layout.

-There really is no "right" answer on how to bind, but there are good practices to follow and general rules for what is optimal and what is sub-optimal. Ultimately, you should take what works from other people's systems and tailor it to your own needs, your hands, your muscle-memory and stretch capacity, and your idiosyncrasies. I have pretty big hands, and I play the piano. Someone with small little jewelcrafter hands is going to have a different optimal keybinding setup than me.

@KysenMurrin
I hold down one of the thumb button and strafe and meanwhile look around with my camera by holding left mouse button. Holding Left+Right mouse button steers your character's facing in the direction of camera view, which is the primary way I move, but you can always run in a constant direction by strafing while moving the camera around to your heart's desire.
Try it out, it's really much more intuitive than it may sound.
Theckhd wrote:big numbers are the in-game way of expressing that Brekkie's penis is huge.
Brekkie
 
Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:44 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Kelaan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 12:53 pm

Brekkie wrote:-Modifiers are something I simply don't use very much.


Emacs broke me, so I am quite willing to use control or alt modifiers. The down side is almost all of what you said -- sometimes, it's clunky to hit shift-2, alt-3, etc. The upside is, if I don't use them, I have a hard time establishing predictable keybinds, let alone binding all of the multitude of things that I need to be able to hit (even if only rarely).
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4036
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Re: Need help learning how to interupt properly.

Postby Shathus » Fri Apr 15, 2011 2:26 pm

I just have '1' as my Holy Power key basically. 1 is CS, Shift+1 is SotR, Ctrl+1 is Wog and Alt+1 is Inq.
Shathus
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1465
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:02 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest