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Gaming Masochism

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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Dantriges » Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:56 pm

I am playing a homegrown P6P RPG system with some of my friends for 10 years or so. Own syste, own story and world. The system was far from polished, there were probably a lot of balance issues, some "disciplines" were hardly playable if you wanted to engage in comba semi regularly, big areas of the world were underdeveloped and so on. I spent the beginning of a session informing the group about this weeks rules updates. Still was a fascinating game back then and people got hooked.

A friend I am playing with, said to me some time ago when we started a new group there inthe same system, that it´s still nice and more polished now but he misses the feeling when we discovered all the mysteries, the world was fresh and unknown, everything was new and so on. Oh and people have less time, some have married, have kids, finished apprenticeship or studying.

That´s probably similar to feelings people experience in WoW. Got older, the game matured and became well known. We now have databases and theorycrafting sites where we can look up latest developments and stuff we don´t know, we know how the game orks and have a passing knowledge how other classes work. We can transfer gold, heirlooms and crafted items from one toon to the other one or if we start on a new server, most people know how to make gold, the game became less difficult, because we know how to play it.

The sense of wonder and excitement about a new experience, a whole new world is gone and won´t come back, no matter what Blizzard will do. Ok unless they start from scratch but even then, WoW has already infested how MMOs are perceived andevery new MMo will be described where it differs or is similar to WoW.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:54 pm

Kelaan wrote:"Heroic mode" leveling could be accomplished simply by letting you GET quests earlier, at a lower level than they're normally supposed to be gotten at -- you'd effectively be doing yellow and orange quests all the time. The down side is, once you master those, the XP income is likely even HIGHER (especially if you group up to do them) than it is now where half the quests are green by the time you finish a zone.

That would both upset noobs ("why are all my quests so hard?") and would likely elicit even more "it's too easy to level!" complaints from highly skilled players like us who LIKE soloing "group" quests.
As was mentioned by someone earlier, you can always go into a zone that's high for your level. You'll not only have to contend with quests that are more difficult (though you'll ultimately figure out a pattern to make the challenge drop a bit anyhow), but also higher level members of the opposing faction.

I prefer a more lore driven concept to leveling because otherwise I feel like it's an annoying obstacle that you do before you actually get to play the game. I liked WotLK leveling because the store was enjoyable to me and the phased zones were pretty cool. On the flip side, TBC kind of sucked to me because the lore just didn't work for me, but to each his own.

Making questing difficult is also kind of hard technically. In the solo game the ability for classes to deal with certain situations varies by quite a bit (at least it used to). I thought leveling on my pally was as easy as it could get for classes...then I played a warlock.

As you level your relative power and the skills you have changes, so folks would level by other means until the quests were simpler. The equipment available is designed to be temporary and general purpose so while the ilevel range is probably a bit more consistent, it's harder to really maximize your stats. That doesn't even get into the fact that you are playing in a live environment where other players can impact what you are doing significantly. Quests could be harder, but I doubt they'd ever be able to make them all particularly challenging.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 14, 2011 11:59 pm

Fridmarr wrote:As was mentioned by someone earlier, you can always go into a zone that's high for your level. You'll not only have to contend with quests that are more difficult (though you'll ultimately figure out a pattern to make the challenge drop a bit anyhow), but also higher level members of the opposing faction.

The only flaw in that is that some quests have minimum levels -- must be 30, or whatnot, especially in newer zones.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:36 am

The minimum level to get quests is often too high, yes.

Also, I'm comparing Wrath leveling to Cata leveling. It is my distinct impression that Wrath leveling had more challenges. Off the top of my head, the quest in Zul Whatever where you're controlling an abom, gathering up trolls and blowing them up. I've died there quite a few times due to my abom grabbing too many trolls and getting hacked down before blowing up. That would never happen in cata quests.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Brekkie » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:19 am

halabar wrote:
theckhd wrote:And as has been mentioned earlier, there's no need for them to tune the difficulty of the leveling process to accommodate seasoned players. That functionality is already available, because you can skip ahead to a higher-level zone early on for a bigger challenge if you desire one.


And would we really want leveling to take longer, just as a barrier to entry of the end-game content? That seems to be what the "old school" request is. Make the leveling and early content challenging enough to keep the "riff-raff" out of the end-game content. When the game was 1-60 that was more viable. 1-70 not as much, and forget it now. Water under bridge.


See, this is what I'm talking about.
The fact that there are people who think this makes me wonder why the game has leveling content at all.

I honestly don't much care how difficult or easy leveling is. I care about the fact that leveling is largely meaningless.
Easy difficulty contributes to this, but is not really the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that the entire leveling process is viewed by a large proportion of the playerbase and the developers as a "meaningless grind".

Leveling should be a ramping learning process teaching you how to succeed in the game. Right now it is not. It arguably has never been.
Failing that it should be an immersive, interactive story-building experience that gets you invested in your character. Before it was not. Arguably it still isn't.


For example, achievement mining sites give us the opportunity to look at how people choose to spend their time within WoW. It's very possible to say "about X% of people in the game try raiding", "Y% do hardcore PvP", etc. So yeah, it's most definitely possible to extrapolate what people want from the game by how they spend their time, and it would be stupid to think that Blizzard doesn't keep even more detailed metrics internally.

There's a huge glaring flaw with this method of data analysis though, toon =/= account.
It fails to take the alt/main dynamic into account.

Heck, if you ONLY polled characters in the guild Premonition, you'd probably come up with some statistic that only 30% of players spend time raiding. When you put that in context though, it's completely misleading.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Gracerath » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:47 am

I wonder how many people have actually leveled up in the "New Azeroth" because I have a feeling a lot of people in this thread have not. Is it easy? Sure. It is also the best story telling and questing I've played in a game in a long time. The 1-60 experience is fantastic, as is 70-85. Seriously though, if you are not happy with leveling in WoW and have not done the new content, you're missing out on some amazing stuff.

I may be in the minority, but I find that leveling/questing is WAY more enjoyable than raiding the same zone over and over again for months. I really wish there were more quests overall to do, especially after hitting max level, and not just repeatable daily shit.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:05 am

Well, I started the ranting, and I have levelled up to nearly 60, in New Azeroth.

It's great story, fun quests, all that. And clinically free of challenge.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby thatguy » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:25 am

Gracerath wrote: I may be in the minority, but I find that leveling/questing is WAY more enjoyable than raiding the same zone over and over again for months. I really wish there were more quests overall to do, especially after hitting max level, and not just repeatable daily shit.


Seconded.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:34 am

Paxen wrote:Well, I started the ranting, and I have levelled up to nearly 60, in New Azeroth.

It's great story, fun quests, all that. And clinically free of challenge.

You can also create your own challenges, wear gray armor or pull more mobs, do only red quests, solo the elite quests etc.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Flex » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:39 am

Paxen wrote:Also, I'm comparing Wrath leveling to Cata leveling. It is my distinct impression that Wrath leveling had more challenges.


I'd say this is completely false. The majority of the elite group needed WotLK quests were that in name only and it was very easy to never die. Your example of you dying during a quest was simply doing it wrong, so I'd say it doesn't count.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:42 am

Fridmarr wrote:You can also create your own challenges, wear gray armor or pull more mobs, do only red quests, solo the elite quests etc.


What elite quests? They're all gone. I could do red quests only, but want to see stuff. I already dumped all +xp stuff such as gathering skills, heirlooms and resting, and I still get way ahead on xp before I finish a zone. I even locked XP when I ran dungeons. My hunter was wearing white-quality pants from Tirisfal beyond level 50 because I liked the looks, and still wears a cloth hood to look slightly dark ranger-ish. I could maybe go 0/1/0 (just for the spec benefits), but half the fun of levelling is gaining new abilities and learning how to use them best. Which leads to mobs dying before my pet even reach them.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:46 am

Flex wrote:I'd say this is completely false. The majority of the elite group needed WotLK quests were that in name only and it was very easy to never die. Your example of you dying during a quest was simply doing it wrong, so I'd say it doesn't count.


The "group quests" were a nice challenge when solo'ed. They're all gone now. And my example is perfectly legitimate: I'm not doing it wrong, I'm simply pushing how many trolls I can kill at a time a bit. I could have grabbed an abom, killed one troll and repeat until all 60 were dead if I wanted to play it safe. Or I could up the risk a bit to get it done quicker - if I pulled it off.

I'll level a non-heirloomed fury warrior now who'll pull packs as often as he can. I'll see how it goes.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:18 am

Paxen wrote:
Flex wrote:I'd say this is completely false. The majority of the elite group needed WotLK quests were that in name only and it was very easy to never die. Your example of you dying during a quest was simply doing it wrong, so I'd say it doesn't count.


The "group quests" were a nice challenge when solo'ed. They're all gone now. And my example is perfectly legitimate: I'm not doing it wrong, I'm simply pushing how many trolls I can kill at a time a bit. I could have grabbed an abom, killed one troll and repeat until all 60 were dead if I wanted to play it safe. Or I could up the risk a bit to get it done quicker - if I pulled it off.

I'll level a non-heirloomed fury warrior now who'll pull packs as often as he can. I'll see how it goes.

Well I don't know what to tell you. It just sounds like you aren't interested in doing what it takes to make quests more challenging for you, because of the other side effects. Though I'm not sure why you can't pull more mobs now, or various other things to ramp up the difficulty. None of the WotLK quests were difficult, you pulled extra mobs and died in one quest and apparently enjoyed that to the point that that one quest makes the whole of WotLK leveling more enjoyable than Cata leveling. My obvious advice would be to pull more mobs.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Dorvan » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:29 am

Brekkie wrote:Leveling should be a ramping learning process teaching you how to succeed in the game. Right now it is not. It arguably has never been.


I certainly think that more tutorial oriented quests would be a great idea. We're rather far afield from the original topic, but yeah I think more class-specific quests to teach mechanics, or basic concepts like "don't stand in the fire" would be a great idea.

Failing that it should be an immersive, interactive story-building experience that gets you invested in your character. Before it was not. Arguably it still isn't.


I'd strongly disagree here, but I'm not going to convince you on something so subjective. Certainly the number of examples you'll find of people rolling a character to see the new 1-60 and then rolling another one to see the zone they didn't see on that first 1-60 speaks to the attractiveness of the content.

There's a huge glaring flaw with this method of data analysis though, toon =/= account.
It fails to take the alt/main dynamic into account.

Heck, if you ONLY polled characters in the guild Premonition, you'd probably come up with some statistic that only 30% of players spend time raiding. When you put that in context though, it's completely misleading.


Yes, it's possible to have overly naive analysis. That doesn't make the data set useless, and I think many "hardcore" players like yourself vastly overestimate the extent to which players participate in raiding and make that the focus of endgame.
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Re: Gaming Masochism

Postby Paxen » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:32 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well I don't know what to tell you. It just sounds like you aren't interested in doing what it takes to make quests more challenging for you, because of the other side effects. Though I'm not sure why you can't pull more mobs now, or various other things to ramp up the difficulty. None of the WotLK quests were difficult, you pulled extra mobs and died in one quest and apparently enjoyed that to the point that that one quest makes the whole of WotLK leveling more enjoyable than Cata leveling. My obvious advice would be to pull more mobs.


And now that I give an example you claim that single quest was my entire basis for liking Wrath levelling? Your post is ridiculous.
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