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[Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

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[Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby LourdeK » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:28 am

Hey all, First off, I can't access most of the holy-specific sites from work, so I'm hoping you all can help out :D

Secondly, sorry if this has been discussed before, and I overlooked it. I did try searching! Honest! for like 2 whole minutes! :wink:

Just wanted to get some thoughts on Improved Judgement vs Eternal Glory.

To me, the extra free heal from EG would always be useful, (barring the occasional WoG -> HS -> EG Proc "D'oh!" moments) and a 40 yd judgement would be situational.

I've also considered that I might be basing this assumption off of a relatively low current holy gear level (330) and at higher gear levels, the aid of the occasional free heal would be less of a crutch.

Thoughts? Observations? Opinions? (specifically regarding the topic would be appreciated, but I'm open to being hijacked :mrgreen: )
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby Kelaan » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:06 pm

LourdeK wrote:To me, the extra free heal from EG would always be useful, (barring the occasional WoG -> HS -> EG Proc "D'oh!" moments) and a 40 yd judgement would be situational.

I've also considered that I might be basing this assumption off of a relatively low current holy gear level (330) and at higher gear levels, the aid of the occasional free heal would be less of a crutch.


I know some were saying that at different phases of content (and different raid sizes, 25 vs 10), they're using their holy power on different things. If you're using flashlight a lot (25-man raids, I believe?) rather than WoG, then Eternal Glory is rarely going to be useful. If you use WoG all the damn time (5-mans, 10s), and don't have trouble getting a judgement onto something, then it's more compelling.

caveat: I don't heal. :)
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby thatguy » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:29 pm

If you're doing heroic dungeons, Eternal Glory is going to be important, especially at your gear level. The possibility of a powerful and free heal seems to be better than some range added to your judgement. The judgement issue can just be alleviated by better positioning on your part.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby LourdeK » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:48 pm

yeah, I suppose a little insight would help. lol.

I'd be primarily healing 10m normals, and a few heroic 5m while gearing up the holy set, but I'd probably end up tanking the 5m unless doing a guild run, just due to the nature of the random queue.

Guild just went through a merger, and as a result, we have an abundance of tanks and are short on heals.

Presently we run 2-3 10m teams per week. There has been some discussion of changing to a 25m format.

From what I understand, LoD is significantly more useful in 25m, and I'd imagine we'd probably switch to 25m heroics once we reach that hurdle, but that's just speculation on my part, since it's my understanding that as long as individual real estate is not a priority, 25H are generally more forgiving than 10H due to the ability to stack certain class/specs. So, at that point, EG would lose some utility.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby thatguy » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:51 pm

Until you switch to 25 mans, WoG/EG is going to be the primary use of your HoPo. You need to hit 3 people with LoD in order to transfer enough healing to your beacon target. In 25s, it's easy to do. 10s is a little more tricky since you're spread out a bit more. Until you make that switch, stick with EG.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby LourdeK » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:02 pm

thatguy wrote:Until you switch to 25 mans, WoG/EG is going to be the primary use of your HoPo. You need to hit 3 people with LoD in order to transfer enough healing to your beacon target. In 25s, it's easy to do. 10s is a little more tricky since you're spread out a bit more. Until you make that switch, stick with EG.


Much appreciated.

Offhand, are there any fights/reasons in 10m where the 2/2 Imp Judge would be useful over another talent (not specifically just EG?)
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby Hrobertgar » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:12 am

What were you thinking of getting instead of Improved Judgement?

As for me, I have been running my healer at 35-yard judg range, and its been fine, and although sometimes I miss the 40-yard range i've been ok with it. Basically I took only 1/2 for the spirit/hit talent, and both the ret talents. I don't want to limit myself too much more than the 5 yards loss I've taken already, because healing range is 40 yards and longer judgement range gives me more freedom of positioning in most fights, although I tend to try to congregate in melee when it is safe to do so.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby sherck » Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:58 am

I am going to go the other way and say that there is zero reason for you to have Imp Judgement as Holy.

I only run 1 point in Enlightened Judgement so my Judgement range is only 15 yards. I run zero points in Imp Judgement and instead choose to run EG (along with Divinity, Crusade and Paragon of Virtue as my 10 talent point "optional" choices).

I can tell you that, being 9/12 on regular mode, there is not a fight that I cannot get into melee range to get SoI returns as well as stay within 15 yards for Judgement on CD. Sure, there are a few times here and there that I am out of Judgement range. Phase 2 of TAC after running to get a buff I can get out of range. Flight phase of Atra I cannot attack the drake. Ummmm....that is about all I can think of off the top of my head.

I have a playstyle that:
1) I cast Divine Light 98x times for every time I can FoL or HL.
2) I stay in melee range to maximize SoI returns.
3) I use WoG primarily and only use LoD on a few group up phase fights.

For my playstyle, I think EG is a much, much better choice than Imp Judgement. Heroic encounters may change this but for Tier-11, there is little reason not to be in melee range of bosses so I think the increased Judgement range is not very compelling.

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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby claisa » Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:01 am

Enlightened judgement 2/2 for the free heal on you and the tank. Sometimes nice to have one in improved judgements for the 30 yard range to tie in with light of dawn range

But i don't find that neccessary.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby sherck » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:43 am

claisa wrote:Enlightened judgement 2/2 for the free heal on you and the tank. Sometimes nice to have one in improved judgements for the 30 yard range to tie in with light of dawn range

But i don't find that neccessary.


For me, that 1 point that I would put into fill out Enlightened Judgement would come from either my 3rd point in Crusade or my 2nd point in Paragon of Virtue.

So, extra healing on Judgement (about 1,800 per heal for the extra rank (1,200 on my and 600 on the tank))?

---- OR ----

30 sec less CD on Avenging Wrath and 20 sec less CD on HoP and 30 sec less CD on HoS

---- OR ----

10% extra healing on Holy Shock that I cast every 6 seconds

Personally, I like the last two effects more than the first one but it can be argued either way.

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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby Hrobertgar » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:52 am

I do run EG, and I've been 12/12 Normal mode for a couple weeks, and there are instances when a 15 yrd judgement range would leave me a little bit out.

Al'Akir, ph1 certainly. The range means I do not have to risk being interupted while maintaining judgement haste
Maloriak, blue phase. Having extra range allows more room for melee, and can allow me to break ice blocks

4 Winds. having more than 15 yrd range is definitely helpfull for frost platform and life platform, but prolly not requried

Omnitron. We tank Toxi by the wall to allow more room to kill adds, so a 15 yard range would leave me either too close to Toxi, or potentially moving to a poor position on the far side of the room Judging the other boss to keep the haste rating up.
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Re: [Holy PvE] Imp Judgement Vs Eternal Glory

Postby sherck » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:47 am

Hrobertgar wrote: I do run EG, and I've been 12/12 Normal mode for a couple weeks, and there are instances when a 15 yrd judgement range would leave me a little bit out.

Al'Akir, ph1 certainly. The range means I do not have to risk being interupted while maintaining judgement haste


Yeah, we have made 3 whole pulls against Al'Akir and have not survived more than 60 seconds so I have almost no experience in that fight. I see how extra Judgement range could help a ton here and may have to adjust my spec when we plan on working on this guy.

Hrobertgar wrote: Maloriak, blue phase. Having extra range allows more room for melee, and can allow me to break ice blocks


I am a 10-man raider and finding a space and still being able to judge has not been an issue for me. If it were, I guess I could go out and Judge the adds....the room is smallish and I don't think I would be out of range of anyone if I did that.

Hrobertgar wrote: 4 Winds. having more than 15 yrd range is definitely helpfull for frost platform and life platform, but prolly not requried


I have never had an issue here. Sure, does the boss occassionally drop a frost patch between me and the tank? Sure, so I work my way around and perhaps delay a Judgement by 5-10 seconds until I get in range again. Really, not a huge issue.

Hrobertgar wrote: Omnitron. We tank Toxi by the wall to allow more room to kill adds, so a 15 yard range would leave me either too close to Toxi, or potentially moving to a poor position on the far side of the room Judging the other boss to keep the haste rating up.


I just start running once DBM tells me that PP is starting. I am well out of range once the adds pop and if I am not targeted, I run back in. If I am targeted, I again delay my next Judgement by 5 or 10 seconds waiting for DPS to kill my add and then I run back in.

Again, I would maintain that most Holy Paladins could "save" three talent points (1 from Enlightened Judgement and 2 from Improved Judgement) to put elsewhere and not lose virtually any of their healing potential from what I can see. You can survive quite well without the additional Judgement range.

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