Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:42 am

Dantriges wrote:IIRC tank damage in BC was abysmal and a lot lower compared to DPS than now. It was better in Wrath but DPS scaled better of course. I think tank damage was around 20% or so of a DPS guy in BC but my memories are a bit hazy.


Sorry, I was referring to the tail end of BC, after they had added all the class changes in prep of Wrath, all tanks were switched to a more common model (pallies went to Str instead of spellpower) and ap scaled up with Stam. Tanks pulled good threat and damage, which imo was a good model because on fights or phases of fights where the tank doesn't matter, they were still contributing in some positive way, not sitting there swinging a wet noodle.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Crimsonheart » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:13 am

at the end of bc (3.0) tank damage and threat was to high, I remember doing a ZA run shortly after 3.0 and forgetting to put up RF and didnt notice till 5th boxx (hexlord?) and never lost threat...
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:17 am

Wrath mechanics in BC. The overbalance was expected, but leveled off in wrath. IIRC there were still a lot of built in threat bonuses that were later removed (and later added again in a different form). This was the time when they wanted tanks to be able to hold threat without huge threat bonuses.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Dantriges » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:49 am

Wonder if everything would have worked out fine with the vengeance mechanic if they hadn´t increased the stamina to health ratio.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Flex » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:46 am

Dantriges wrote:Wonder if everything would have worked out fine with the vengeance mechanic if they hadn´t increased the stamina to health ratio.


Vengeance ignores that change.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:43 am

Aubade wrote:RF hasn't been dispellable for a LONG LONG time. Also; If RF got dispelled that would mean PvP. And last I checked there's no benefit of having RF up unless you need threat which is extremely useful in PvP eh

It was dispellable for a while after 4.0 and was made undispellable in either a hotfix or patch a few months ago. The only use of RF in PvP, of course, was because it was dispellable, so ate up a cast from dispel spammers. Though it does seem to work on pets if the player isn't giving proper attack commands.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby bldavis » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:46 am

i also havent pvped on my pally since wrath, when we had a talent that reduced the damage inc when we had RF up
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby masterpoobaa » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:38 pm

Question, whats the difference in +strength at the moment with equivalent level pvp and pve gear?
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby lythac » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:36 am

masterpoobaa wrote:Question, whats the difference in +strength at the moment with equivalent level pvp and pve gear?


It is the same. Of course there aren't any equal ilvl PvP/PvP pieces. For Cata both Str/Sta are tied to ilvl.

There are differences between str on gear of equal level (but not sta) based on the number of sockets and whether the socket budget has been taken from str or a secondary stat. Socket budget seems to never be taken from sta.

Edit - There are a couple of items where someone has tinkered with them and reduced a large potion of a stat and changed it into something else.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby tlitp » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:33 am

Malthrax wrote:Bliz could also tune the encounters to not require 15+ DPS going "balls out" the microsecond the tank pulls...

It's more than encounter design alone, dropping the "stack survivability" paradigm was actually detrimental. Back in the day, there were numerous examples of non-tanks having to reach survivability thresholds. A few examples : Vaelastrasz, Huhuran, Royal Trio (hard), Viscidus (as Alliance), pre-nerf Ouro, Loatheb, Sapphiron, Doomwalker, pre-nerf Solarian; most of them required specific resistances, but there were a few based on the raw health pool. By making non-tanks ignore survivability-oriented stats, Blizzard exacerbated the "problem" of trigger-happy DPS. You see, this particular symptom is not really a "problem"... it's a feature by design.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:49 am

tlitp wrote:
Malthrax wrote:Bliz could also tune the encounters to not require 15+ DPS going "balls out" the microsecond the tank pulls...

It's more than encounter design alone, dropping the "stack survivability" paradigm was actually detrimental. Back in the day, there were numerous examples of non-tanks having to reach survivability thresholds. A few examples : Vaelastrasz, Huhuran, Royal Trio (hard), Viscidus (as Alliance), pre-nerf Ouro, Loatheb, Sapphiron, Doomwalker, pre-nerf Solarian; most of them required specific resistances, but there were a few based on the raw health pool. By making non-tanks ignore survivability-oriented stats, Blizzard exacerbated the "problem" of trigger-happy DPS. You see, this particular symptom is not really a "problem"... it's a feature by design.


Even in Ulduar there was at least one specific instance where stacking survivability (raw health) on DPS was instrumental in a lot of early kills - Freya3. It's the only example I can think of from WotLK, though, where anyone thought about health on DPS at all.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Shathus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:30 am

Meloree wrote:
tlitp wrote:
Malthrax wrote:Bliz could also tune the encounters to not require 15+ DPS going "balls out" the microsecond the tank pulls...

It's more than encounter design alone, dropping the "stack survivability" paradigm was actually detrimental. Back in the day, there were numerous examples of non-tanks having to reach survivability thresholds. A few examples : Vaelastrasz, Huhuran, Royal Trio (hard), Viscidus (as Alliance), pre-nerf Ouro, Loatheb, Sapphiron, Doomwalker, pre-nerf Solarian; most of them required specific resistances, but there were a few based on the raw health pool. By making non-tanks ignore survivability-oriented stats, Blizzard exacerbated the "problem" of trigger-happy DPS. You see, this particular symptom is not really a "problem"... it's a feature by design.


Even in Ulduar there was at least one specific instance where stacking survivability (raw health) on DPS was instrumental in a lot of early kills - Freya3. It's the only example I can think of from WotLK, though, where anyone thought about health on DPS at all.


I don't know if this would apply, but.. any raider who's ever been required to get the run-speed enchant for boots because they're too slow at getting out of the fire/bad. It's not in the same ballpark as say resist gear requirements, but still qualifies as an example of survivability over DPS (especially since pre-cata runspeed enchants)
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:44 am

Shathus wrote:I don't know if this would apply, but.. any raider who's ever been required to get the run-speed enchant for boots because they're too slow at getting out of the fire/bad. It's not in the same ballpark as say resist gear requirements, but still qualifies as an example of survivability over DPS (especially since pre-cata runspeed enchants)


On the vast majority of fights the runspeed enchant was (and still is) the best dps enchant for boots.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby warden » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:15 pm

Many guilds require it baseline... I know my current guild and my last one both do, either on the boots, or in the spec (yay, PoJ).
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Meloree wrote:
Shathus wrote:I don't know if this would apply, but.. any raider who's ever been required to get the run-speed enchant for boots because they're too slow at getting out of the fire/bad. It's not in the same ballpark as say resist gear requirements, but still qualifies as an example of survivability over DPS (especially since pre-cata runspeed enchants)


On the vast majority of fights the runspeed enchant was (and still is) the best dps enchant for boots.


So much this.

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