Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:30 pm

Nikachelle wrote:TBH, aside from the ONE guy in this thread that said he enjoys pugging, for how many is this actually going to change their behaviour? Is anyone here more likely to queue for a heroic dungeon by your lonesome?


I'm going to at least test the system out to get a feel for the rewards.

This is from someone who never PUGs.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby coldthing » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:34 pm

i just think it'll be an even bigger increase in the problem of inept dps slapping on a tanking spec and queueing.

i solo queue quite frequently on my main and on my tank alts (Mostly out of sheer laziness and my entire guild is obsessed with rift right now)

but this still isn't going to make me run anymore heroics then my valor cap requires, i already have the white hawkstrider, blue proto drake, and the ravenlord.

so

i could spend 10 minutes speed running stratholme.

or

i could spent 20-45 minutes dragging people kicking and screaming through a heroic that i'm not even guaranteed to finish due to the combined intelligence of my battlegroup being less then that of a small rodent.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:37 pm

Aanar wrote:2. Change it so it takes tanks 8 random herois to get to the weekly cap, healers 7 and dps 5. The idea here being that a majority of people in the systme are there for VP and don't queue after they're capped (for the day or week). Not a popular option and might not even work since tanks might just go as dps and twiddle their thumbs while they wait. Offering additional VP for tanks really wouldn't work if the weekly cap was equal.


Can't work.

Either: Tanks get less VP per run, discouraging them from queueing - you're paying them less. Socialism doesn't work well in a game. "We need you to queue twice as much so we're paying you half the amount" is going to lead to a lot of tanks saying "Fuck You" to the RDF. I certainly would, on general principles and annoyedness.

Or: Tanks get more VP per week, unfairly giving them faster access to VP gear. Result? Tankable classes in hard-core guilds end up having to run a tank spec so they can earn VP to buy gear at the optimal rate for their "real" spec. Result: Fury warriors & cat druids are better than rogues because they can gear up faster. Boomkin > Magelocks. Etc.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Nothan » Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:10 pm

This will not change my behavior towards randoms. I don't do them anymore and never will again in a pug. The rewards of novelty mounts for which I could care less about aren't good enough to make me want to tank solo. I will only do heroics at the request of people I know and don't care about the extras. Unless, it is some substantial amount of gold on completion or something on a scale of a BoE epic, no thanks.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby masterpoobaa » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:28 pm

Ill still tank randoms.
I still like tanking randoms, even after all the crap I've endured.
Hell knows why... Maybe it because I'm a masochist and enjoy the pain of tanking, or maybe its that 1 in 100 random PuG member who makes it all worthwhile by not being a total spleen-douche.

I had the idea a long time back that Blizz should give tanks/heals a slight bonus to queue - but allow the said character to transfer the loot/badge reward to another toon - Bind on Account style.

But of course Blizz will not do that: It means we spend less time leveling our alts.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Gracerath » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:36 pm

I can safely say that I have never once pugged a heroic in Cataclysm. I've always had a group of friends to run with. (I have pugged some normal 85's on my alt warrior though, but never a heroic) This change will probably have me running some randoms through out the week in addition to my normal heroics with friends.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Passionario » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:40 pm

Nikachelle wrote:TBH, aside from the ONE guy in this thread that said he enjoys pugging, for how many is this actually going to change their behaviour? Is anyone here more likely to queue for a heroic dungeon by your lonesome?

My current main's class does not have a tanking tree, and I no longer play alts (nothing cures alt-itis like micromanaging three dozen characters in Estiah for several months straight).

However, I will solo-queue as a healer if I decide to run a heroic and notice that "CtA:H" is up.

bldavis wrote:what pisses me off aout this is i am fucked.....

my main is a hunter, he is the one that has my mount collection, my pet collection, my exalted reps (for the most part) and the only one with the violet proto drake

so what am i supposed to do if i want the goodie bag?
just say fuck it and throw away 2 1/2 yrs of hard work and long grinds and make one of my tanks my main?


I guess you could call it a hybrid tax...

*sunglasses*

...refund.
Last edited by Passionario on Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby rodos » Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:02 am

I feel like most of this has been done before, but I think the only "solution" to the queue problem is to make tanking fun (and easy) for more people, or to remove it from 5-mans entirely.

One scheme that might make me more inclined to tank random heroics would be to make the "dungeon guide" role more important, in order to remove some of the responsibility from the tank. The idea being that you force the "rare" role from tank to leader. Since every class is able to click the leader button, you can start giving out real goodies like VP.

Some ways to do this would be:
* Only group leader can mark, talk to NPCs, activate doors/elevators.
* Leader given only to people who click the "willing to lead" button. Prerequisite is having the achievement for the dungeon/difficulty in question on any toon.
* Leader gets the extra lootsack.

You could even give leaders some kind of personal rating for completed vs failed runs if you really needed to dive home the point that the leader is responsible for the run.

It's possible that there would be even less competent and willing group leaders in the queue than there are tanks right now, but I doubt it. I think there are a lot of good players, who know the pulls inside out, who just don't like to tank. What's more, a good leader can lead just as well from an alt that they're gearing up as they can from their main.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Passionario » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:04 am

Rohan at Blessing of Kings proposed a very interesting and unorthodox solution: change "1-1-3" role formula to "2-2-2".

In short term, it would exacerbate tank/healer shortages due to doubled demand. Yet in long term, it would fix the underlying problem by allowing responsibility to be shared in equal measure regardless of the role.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Karnadas » Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:26 am

I, personally, really like this. My main is a tank but I haven't done a random heroic in a very long time. My DPS characters, however, I do spend a lot of time on. So if they can get into a heroic quicker, I'll be happy. Hopefully I don't end up with really bad tanks, though.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:07 am

Passionario wrote:Rohan at Blessing of Kings proposed a very interesting and unorthodox solution: change "1-1-3" role formula to "2-2-2".

In short term, it would exacerbate tank/healer shortages due to doubled demand. Yet in long term, it would fix the underlying problem by allowing responsibility to be shared in equal measure regardless of the role.


And Guild groups will go as 1-1-4.

Been, there, done that: EQ had a 6-player group. Result was four DPS, not extra tanks or healers.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby RedAces » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:59 am

hey,

yay new BluePost!
in a nutshell:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/168332/dungeon-finder-call-to-arms wrote:
  • the goodie Bag is BoA
  • it may contain mounts (drop rate is the same as if you would normally kill the bosses that drop them ... so ~1% for Raven Lord etc...)
  • may contain a random Flask (depends NOT on the tank specc)


Bye, RedAces
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:16 am

Just to poke more fun at the dungeon wait times... I had a 5 minute queue on my shaman last night and I only queued as dps. Made me laugh.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Senador » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:44 am

And Guild groups will go as 1-1-4.

Been, there, done that: EQ had a 6-player group. Result was four DPS, not extra tanks or healers.


Technically, EQ did a different set up, in it was often 1-1-1-3, in that EQ had actual "Support" classes that helped a lot (Enchanters, Bards). FF 11 had this as well but used Red Mages and Bards in the "Support" role. Groups COULD function without one, but groups that did often moved much more efficiently. Essentially support classes just buffed or debuffed mobs, provided effective crowd controls, and made the group efficient enough that the lack of the extra DPS was offset by the much higher efficiency and lower downtime of the group. Later expansions substantially reduced the need for support though, but I believe the original set up was as above.

WoW basically took that set up, and just removed the Support Role (As it was by far the least played role) and left the set up as 1-1-3.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:32 am

Senador wrote:WoW basically took that set up, and just removed the Support Role (As it was by far the least played role) and left the set up as 1-1-3.

I don't know that this is entirely true. In beta/vanilla, at least early on, Paladins and Shamans basically played a support role. Jack of all trades, master of none, but provided lots of semi-unique raid/party buffs and utility. At least for the first few months or so. At some point (right around the Holy Tree revamp, I guess?) they decided to nix this role/class model and turned Paladins/Shamans into primarily healers, at least as far as raids go. That's when I'd say the support role died.
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