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Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:59 am

Shoju wrote:The problem is, I AM farming these things that they are now giving away to the "called to arms" (tanks) specs. The Solo Queue is BS IMO.

BLizzard: Hey! We are really going to push towards getting everyone in guilds! Guilds are cool guilds are fun! Guild are AWESOME!

Blizzard: Hey! We don't want you to actually "do" things with these awesome people. We want you to still run around with people that you don't know to get awesome goodie bags and buffs, and the rewards that we were going to give you for doing things together? Yeah.... We changed our minds.

Sorry, this is just another poor choice in an expac that was supposed to be very guild centric.


Seriously Shoju? This is even whinier than usual for you.

Every mechanic in the game does not have to unilaterally support the guild-centric focus of the expansion. This mechanic in particular is being put in to specifically address a particular failing of the guild-centric focus. Since the queue encourages tanks that are in guilds to share their free queue with guildmates, people who aren't in a guild or are in a guild with a shortage of active/available tanks end up waiting a very long time in a LFD queue.

This is throwing an additional incentive into the mix to help the queue run more smoothly. It's a small enough incentive that it shouldn't make you seriously consider ditching your guildies unless you're Aubad, but hopefully large enough to make doing another heroic more attractive than say, farming.

Before CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A goes off and does other stuff afterward (maybe farming gold or farming mounts in old instances?).

After CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A may queue for another daily heroic alone for the chance at the old mounts/gold/etc.

You lose literally nothing from the inclusion of this feature, there's only a perceived loss based on the opportunity cost of doing your "normal" daily heroic with guildies instead of alone. But that's an opportunity cost of the new system, not a loss when comparing the new system to the old one.

And to be honest, if you measure your friendship with your guild members in terms of opportunity cost, you're an asshole (c.f. previously-mentioned Aubad :P ) or in the wrong guild.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Flex » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:02 pm

I'm down from tanking a heroic every day to 4 times a week or so. The reason I tank heroics now is pretty much just guild XP now.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Aanar » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:03 pm

sherck wrote:However, biger question. If you could do anything, what would you do to increase the number of tanks in RDF or decrease the wait time of DPS ? You can make any changes at all, what would you do?



I have three ideas may or may not work, but at least have a better chance of working that the pets/mounts.

1. Change the group size to 6 so you can cram in an extra dps

2. Change it so it takes tanks 8 random herois to get to the weekly cap, healers 7 and dps 5. The idea here being that a majority of people in the systme are there for VP and don't queue after they're capped (for the day or week). Not a popular option and might not even work since tanks might just go as dps and twiddle their thumbs while they wait. Offering additional VP for tanks really wouldn't work if the weekly cap was equal.

3. Implement an acheivement for doing 10k dps on a level 87 target dummy for 5 minutes. Want to queue for a random heroic as dps? The acheivement is required. This is just a blanant attempt to filter out the scrub 4k dps people so the ones that know how to play don't have to wait. Of course you'd have the problem of getting people that fail queueing as heals or tank...

I've been running on my hunter lately and the queue time has been about 28 to 35 minutes. I don't really see what the big deal is. I just puts around on the AH, doing quests for rep, or play civ V.

Let's say they were widely successful and the queue for dps dropped to 5 minutes? Personally, I'd be more inclined to wait 5 minutes and run as dps than deal with the stress of healing.

I would argue having to wait does have one good effect - it makes dps the least likely to ditch out on a group the first time it wipes. On the other hand, it stinks when everyone leaves and you have to requeue for another 30 min or you miss the box and get removed from the queue.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:06 pm

Flex wrote:I'm down from tanking a heroic every day to 4 times a week or so. The reason I tank heroics now is pretty much just guild XP now.

More than me. I do it maybe once a month. If I do queue for heroics now on my paladin, it's in order to heal (I need to get better at it).
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Flex » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:10 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Flex wrote:I'm down from tanking a heroic every day to 4 times a week or so. The reason I tank heroics now is pretty much just guild XP now.

More than me. I do it maybe once a month. If I do queue for heroics now on my paladin, it's in order to heal (I need to get better at it).


I enjoy tanking too much to not do it often and I enjoy running with guildies, especially when it is 4 vs 1 pug and we try to make it uncomfortable for them, or do fights in the "not approved" manner. Like always evolving one zealot to not make the healer bored (had a mage leave group after I explained how we were doing it and they failed at blocking their beam and let a second one evolve and then blamed me for not knowing how to do the fight), or tanking foe reaper down by the furnace ("You have to tank him at the top of the stairs").
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:14 pm

Flex wrote: or tanking foe reaper down by the furnace ("You have to tank him at the top of the stairs").

I did it that way for two months with guildies before I entered RDF by myself and everyone yelled at me for tanking it down there. Never was an issue before, the guy in the reaper always kept everything away from us, I couldn't figure out why we needed to move to the top of the stairs.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shathus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:21 pm

There is a thread on the official forums that had a suggestion to make the bag BoA (and required level 85 to open). That way current tanks of course still get the opportunity for the perks, but DPS (or healer) mains with a tank alt can still queue up, but earn those mounts for their main.

It seems like a reasonable solution, though in the end, the purpose is to get tanks (or whatever role) into the queues, not provide access to mounts and pets, which is what most people seem to forget.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:34 pm

theckhd wrote:Seriously Shoju? This is even whinier than usual for you.


What it boils down to is:

1.) I can farm them faster on my own.
2.) I can farm them with a guildie if I so choose.
3.) This isn't going to serve to create a more sustainable amount of people in the queue. Look at Aubade, the lone person who said "SIGN ME UP". What is he going to do when he gets his Anzu and Hawkstrider? Stop running it.
4.) for some people this will be seen as a "I must do this to have more chances at the mounts" type of deal. I'm not saying that it's a valid argument, but it is one that was brought up to me.


Before CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A goes off and does other stuff afterward (maybe farming gold or farming mounts in old instances?).

After CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A may queue for another daily heroic alone for the chance at the old mounts/gold/etc.


The difference here is that if I want to take a guildie along with me, I can do so in the "Before CTA". I can't do that in "After CTA". It seems like a dick move to me when someone says "Anyone for a random?" and I say, "Sorry, I'm queuing for the mount."



EDITED: Bolded parts for clarity.
Last edited by Shoju on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shathus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:37 pm

Shoju wrote:
The difference here is that if I want to take a guildie along with me, I can do so in the "Before CTA". I can't do that in "After CTA". It seems like a dick move to me when someone says "Anyone for a random?" and I say, "Sorry, I'm queuing for the mount."


Sure you can... that difference is you don't get a shot at a mount... which is the exact same as if you queued up today. It's a personal choice to make.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Nikachelle » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:40 pm

I don't agree with the concept of it, so I kind of agree with Shoju that it does take away from queuing with your guild. But like a lot of people have said, it's not going to change many of their behaviours. It doesn't change mine, so I don't care. I'm looking at this the same way I looked at the extra goodie bags we got for completing Oculus... hilarity. They have to bribe us to do something and yet not look at the overall problem with their model. (I personally don't have a problem with the model, but I'm saying it's clear others do.)

Edit: I wonder when they're going to start handing out goodie bags for completing Grim Batol. :lol:
Last edited by Nikachelle on Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:40 pm

Shathus wrote:
Shoju wrote:
The difference here is that if I want to take a guildie along with me, I can do so in the "Before CTA". I can't do that in "After CTA". It seems like a dick move to me when someone says "Anyone for a random?" and I say, "Sorry, I'm queuing for the mount."


Sure you can... that difference is you don't get a shot at a mount... which is the exact same as if you queued up today. It's a personal choice to make.



Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to
Before CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A goes off and does other stuff afterward (maybe farming gold or farming mounts in old instances?).

After CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A may queue for another daily heroic alone for the chance at the old mounts/gold/etc.


Bolded portions. I guess I wasn't really clear on that.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shathus » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:47 pm

Shojo wrote:Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to
Before CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A goes off and does other stuff afterward (maybe farming gold or farming mounts in old instances?).

After CtA:
Tank A queues for daily heroic with guildies to share the love.
Tank A may queue for another daily heroic alone for the chance at the old mounts/gold/etc.


Bolded portions. I guess I wasn't really clear on that.


I guess I just still see it as the same if you re-word you original quote

Shoju wrote:The difference here is that if I want to take a guildie along with me, I can do so in the "Before CTA". I can't do that in "After CTA". It seems like a dick move to me when someone says "Anyone for a random?" and I say, "Sorry, I'm farming an old dungeon for a mount."


Both options (doing a CtA dungeon and old heroic) give you the opportunity to add "but I can run one with you afterwards if you want." Again, I just see it as a choice you make, do I want to spend time doing something for me, or spend time helping people out.

Granted, I will concede that doing a farm run of an old dungeon will likely be quicker than a PuG heroic
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby Shoju » Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:57 pm

You are missing my point. If person X in my guild says "Hey Shoju, whatcha doin?" Right now, my response would be

"Soloing Anzu"
or
"Soloing Skadi"

And they would say "hey, mind if I tag along?" And I would say "Sure. I don't care."

After CtA it would be "Hey Shoju, whatcha doin?" My response then will be:

"Doing a random for a chance at a mount."

And they will say "hey, mind if I tag along?" And I would say "Sorry. Have to Queue Solo."

But the point is, If I take the time to run a Heroic for a chance at a mount, I wont have time to run "another one" with them afterwards. I'm lucky if I get to run a heroic a night, and super lucky if I get to do that + something else.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 07, 2011 1:09 pm

Shoju wrote:You are missing my point. If person X in my guild says "Hey Shoju, whatcha doin?" Right now, my response would be

"Soloing Anzu"
or
"Soloing Skadi"

And they would say "hey, mind if I tag along?" And I would say "Sure. I don't care."

After CtA it would be "Hey Shoju, whatcha doin?" My response then will be:

"Doing a random for a chance at a mount."

And they will say "hey, mind if I tag along?" And I would say "Sorry. Have to Queue Solo."

But the point is, If I take the time to run a Heroic for a chance at a mount, I wont have time to run "another one" with them afterwards. I'm lucky if I get to run a heroic a night, and super lucky if I get to do that + something else.


After CtA:
Guildie: "Mind if I tag along?"
Shoju: "Sure, let me drop queue and we'll go directly to UP for Skadi."

Again, you've lost nothing compared to the current system, in which "Mind if I tag along" is instead "would you tank a heroic for me?" If you were going to say "no" to tanking a heroic in 4.0.6, you're perfectly capable of still saying "no" in 4.1.

I think what you're arguing is that the peer pressure to not farm for the mount is greater because you're doing so via RDF instead of going to an old instance, which is a reasonable distinction. Though your queue should pop so quickly as a tank that you'll already be in the dungeon by the time anyone can ask what you're doing, at which point it's too late for them anyway, giving you plausible deniability.
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Re: Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms

Postby yappo » Thu Apr 07, 2011 2:11 pm

Being pugged in to tank raids it would seem I get a shot at some extra candy.

Does that make me think the candy-random is a good idea?

No.

Nothing short of basing dungeons around 7-man dungeons would work, and I shudder at the thought of dragging five unknown dps through those.

I can't understand how Blizzard tries to make believe that 20% of the non-fail dungeon-population would be tanks.
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