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GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:07 am

I suppose I don't follow this perception that devalued threat stats is a "bad thing".

Even in Knaughty's example, while I understand I'm supposed to be appalled that a "non-heroic" geared tank held aggro over a substantially better geared raid, I'm not.

What massive threat increase would he have seen from being in "Heroic" gear that would somehow make this scenario more acceptable? Slightly more Strength, and *perhaps* a smattering of more Hit and Expertise? Wouldn't at least part of his later threat lead also be attributed to DPS shifting their attention periodically to adds, while he continued to focus pretty much exclusively on the boss? Isn't this example demonstrating that Vengeance is "working as intended"?

Basically, are we really arguing for a return to threat capping DPS over the long term in encounters? Or perhaps for the ability of a tank to hold threat being dictated as much or more by ilevel of the tank's gear than quality of play?

I'm not being argumentative for its own sake, or being sarcastic. I am being sincere in saying I don't understand the insistence that Vengeance needs to be reworked, and I am trying to. In my understanding, it has pretty much always been the case (with a few incidental exceptions) that high end progression tanks focused almost exclusively on survival, and relied on proper usage of class abilities and cooperation of their raid to hold threat. Why are we now finding this to be unacceptable/undesirable?

As for what's Knaughty has proposed as changes, if anything, they suggest that threat at the beginning of an encounter and immediately following tank swaps (the only times when you'd really like to have threat stats, currently) would be less of issues. By doing this, you're overall buffing Vengeance, and further nerfing the value of threat stats in any encounter that doesn't allow DPS to focus on the same target as the tank over the long term, or in scenarios where the fight is short enough (such as trash in 5 mans) that DPS don't have as much time to "ramp up". That is strictly my opinion, and I'm completely open to the idea that I'm wrong/misunderstanding.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:56 am

Mannstein wrote:Shouldn't threat stats matter to i don't know.. Threat?


Descriptions like "threat stats" are merely artificial labels that have no meaning outside of specific context.

Take Intellect, for example. Is it a 'longevity stat', a 'regen stat', a 'useless stat' or a throughput stat'? Ask a Holy Paladin from 2.1, a Disc Priest from 3.0, a Hunter from 4.0 and a Fire Mage from 4.1, and you'll get different answers, yet it's still the same stat!

Therefore, although Hit and Expertise once served as threat stats for tanks, there is no reason why they couldn't fulfill an entirely different role in the future.

Mannstein wrote:I might be living on the past, but i liked when i had to compromise between threat and survability


And I'm sure that quite a few players liked it when they didn't have to deal with the whole "tank balance" nonsense, because everyone who was serious about tanking rolled a Warrior anyway. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that it would be a good idea to bring either of these features back, though.

Mannstein wrote:when we had to spend more that 3seconds in "reforging"/picking gear.


Wouldn't it be more interesting to spend that time choosing between survivability and a different kind of survivability, as GC is trying to suggest?

Imagine, for a second, a world where *every* stat is a survivability stat for tanks. Hit increases the duration of powerful abilities like GoAK or Shield Wall, Haste reduces their cooldowns, Crit buffs all healing spells cast on you, Spirit reduces their mana cost, and Expertise mitigates the effects of any nasty debuffs enemies might place on you. Meanwhile, you still have good old dodge, parry and mastery, plus the return of "extra Stam" and "extra Armor", for good measure, with a sprinkle of +resistances on top.

Some of these stats have diminishing returns, while others can be stacked ad infinitum. Some can be hardcapped, and some have multiple softcaps and plateaus. Some are more beneficial for Druids, while others are better for Paladins. All of them allow for interesting and non-trivial choices.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:47 am

Hokahey wrote:Even in Knaughty's example, while I understand I'm supposed to be appalled that a "non-heroic" geared tank held aggro over a substantially better geared raid, I'm not.

My surprise was that heroic-geared DPS spamming the fuck out everything, pre-pot, bloodlust and the the Magelocks having a whole air-phase... I was in WoG-spam mode from 30 seconds in and even the air phases just put the DPS "closer", not actually "close".

I'm OK with holding aggro from a better geared raid with skillful play.

But it doesn't tank skillful play. It takes rolling face on keyboard.

Mount Hyjal was pretty boring to tank because it was so damn easy as a Paladin. My warrior tanks used to get a huge thrill from successfully tanking the trash waves on the rare occasions I wasn't present. I just pressed "Holy Shield, Consecrate, repeat" and got bored out of my skull.

Shit being too easy is boring. I would strongly prefer that holding aggro on a pre-potting bloodlusting out-gearing raid was, yannow, hard. Maybe something I had to think about. Rather than.. Wings, ShoR 3 times, switch to WoG.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Malthrax » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:57 am

knaughty wrote:Shit being too easy is boring.

Naw, man... "shit being too easy" is what we call "accessible", donchaknow?
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 07, 2011 10:49 am

knaughty wrote:
Hokahey wrote:Even in Knaughty's example, while I understand I'm supposed to be appalled that a "non-heroic" geared tank held aggro over a substantially better geared raid, I'm not.

My surprise was that heroic-geared DPS spamming the fuck out everything, pre-pot, bloodlust and the the Magelocks having a whole air-phase... I was in WoG-spam mode from 30 seconds in and even the air phases just put the DPS "closer", not actually "close".

I'm OK with holding aggro from a better geared raid with skillful play.

But it doesn't tank skillful play. It takes rolling face on keyboard.


Problem is actually more difficult with heroic gear. This is the fight where Vengeance and it's inverse scaling problems start to show up. I don't lose aggro - I taunt on landing for safety, but it's not actually required - but it's a hell of a lot closer than it would be if Vengeance redlined like it does (almost) everywhere else. I dislike having that aspect being nearly out of my control - good threat or bad threat depends on avoidance, not what I do (aside from ass-tanking, I've done a bit of that to ensure good starting threat)
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby knaughty » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:48 pm

RedAces wrote:Wheres the difference between a tank and a DPS then? Hence we need "only get vengeance on doing tank-jobs".


Tanks will do less damage that DPS.

Even with current mega-super-Vengeance we do less damage than DPS.

It isn't like you'll suddenly bring 10 tanks to a 25-man as DPS people.

As for the AoE problems? Blizzard fucked it up, they can fix it if they want to. Actually giving magical DPS some decent AoE would be a good start...
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:37 pm

knaughty wrote:
Hokahey wrote:Even in Knaughty's example, while I understand I'm supposed to be appalled that a "non-heroic" geared tank held aggro over a substantially better geared raid, I'm not.

My surprise was that heroic-geared DPS spamming the fuck out everything, pre-pot, bloodlust and the the Magelocks having a whole air-phase... I was in WoG-spam mode from 30 seconds in and even the air phases just put the DPS "closer", not actually "close".

I'm OK with holding aggro from a better geared raid with skillful play.

But it doesn't tank skillful play. It takes rolling face on keyboard.

[Mt. Hyjal stuff]

Shit being too easy is boring. I would strongly prefer that holding aggro on a pre-potting bloodlusting out-gearing raid was, yannow, hard. Maybe something I had to think about. Rather than.. Wings, ShoR 3 times, switch to WoG.


But since when has holding aggro on single targets been a real issue of gameplay difficulty for tanks? How would changing/nerfing/removing Vengeance increase gameplay challenge (as opposed to just adding another gearing concern)? I know from my experience while tanking, when all I have to do is get and hold a boss' attention, it really is pretty damn faceroll. This has pretty much always been the case.

From what I can see, nerfing Vengeance would only *possibly* make threat stats more valuable, but in the end you'd still be pressing the same buttons pretty much the same way. It probably wouldn't even change the ideal way to gear while progressing. It wouldn't make tanking "hard", it would just force your raid to wait longer while your threat ramped up. It wouldn't really make your job any more difficult (maybe you'd use taunt abilities more frequently?), but it could potentially make *theirs* both more difficult and less fun.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Mannstein » Fri Apr 08, 2011 2:53 am

knaughty wrote:
RedAces wrote:Wheres the difference between a tank and a DPS then? Hence we need "only get vengeance on doing tank-jobs".


Tanks will do less damage that DPS.

Even with current mega-super-Vengeance we do less damage than DPS.


Well, in some situations, tanks can outdps dps...
ex. I'm tank in offspec,have a mix of hc blues and leftover purples, and on halfus 10men HM, while tanking the little dragons and the timewarden then the 3rd dragon, i was able to finish the first phase with a whopping 22k dps. (then i died)
And to be honest, on chogall, a full epic exp/hit capped good tank, could keep up with an average dps. (i almost did on our shamy interrupt bitch)
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Passionario » Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:21 am

knaughty wrote:Shit being too easy is boring. I would strongly prefer that holding aggro on a pre-potting bloodlusting out-gearing raid was, yannow, hard. Maybe something I had to think about. Rather than.. Wings, ShoR 3 times, switch to WoG.


Using "one-size-fits-all" approach to threat management worked fine in Vanilla, when the majority of fights were essentially tank/spank, and holding aggro on Golemagg was just as challenging as holding aggro on Flamegor.

However, modern fights are diverse enough to make all attempts to impose a universal formula futile. If, for example, you tune Vengeance and tank threat modifiers so that it's pretty hard (yet still doable) to hold aggro on Atramedes, then it will still be trivial and boring to do fights like Cho'gall, where the raid has to switch to other targets and tanks benefit from taunt-swapping. On other hand, if you tune Vengeance so that it's hard to hold aggro on Cho'gall and the like, then Patchwerk-style fights will become pretty much impossible.

Of course, if we accept that threat management greatly depends on the particulars of specific encounter, then it becomes logical to tune it via encounter-specific means - like, say, Hodir's power zones or LDW's debuffs - rather than attempting to use a generic fix that will most likely fail anyway.

TLDR: Vengeance is fine, WTB more +200% damage stackable buffs for DPS.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:26 am

Passionario wrote:TLDR: Vengeance is fine, WTB more +200% damage stackable buffs for DPS.

Or the threat decay mechanic they were considering in beta. If threat past 30 seconds decayed away, there would be an incentive to keep hitting the boss even on target-swapping fights.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby Hokahey » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:17 am

theckhd wrote:
Passionario wrote:TLDR: Vengeance is fine, WTB more +200% damage stackable buffs for DPS.

Or the threat decay mechanic they were considering in beta. If threat past 30 seconds decayed away, there would be an incentive to keep hitting the boss even on target-swapping fights.


This. This is a good solution.
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Re: GC and the possibility of Hit & Exp being tank stats.

Postby 2ndNin » Sat Apr 09, 2011 10:56 am

Threat decay and similar are likely the most interesting solutions to this problem, however it seems the fundamental issue is still the same - DPS scale faster than tanks do.

If our stats were designed such that an average tank could deal 50% of the damage of the expected DPS requirement for the fight (so the 110%, 130% threat caps became an issue again) with a good tank being able to push to 60 or even 75% of a DPS we could see this as much less of an issue because our scaling wouldn't depend on the vengeance buff but rather the gear and our skill level.

Something like 969 or 939 is a good basic rotation for a tank to have (simple and solid to let them concentrate on the fight) and lets us achieve this minimum level of competence to actually tank. Our further DPS rotation could be based on sacrificing threat for damage (so attacks that either utilise threat or do very low threat). Skilled tanking then becomes a case of pushing as far ahead of the DPS as possible with the threat mechanics (and decay) and pushing in as much DPS utility as you can. It is easy to see a tanking rotation where the tank tank generates lower DPS than the off-tank and DPS but all tanks still generate reasonable DPS with skill.
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