Graphics Card Question

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:18 pm

gibborim wrote:If I would have to choose between Linux and OSX, OSX would win every time. Take any imagined or real level of driver issues you may experience in Windows and add in having to write the drivers yourself. I had more than enough driver writing from my assembly language classes for this lifetime.


At least we agree on something :P
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:30 pm

gibborim wrote:Wait, why can't Macs play Blu Ray? (Not that I would actually care about that missing feature before games start coming out on them.)


Apple (probably Our Lord Steve Himself) have made the call that BlueRay is dead tech and have refused to support it (same with USB 3).

They're making the "floppy" call again - they were the first manufacturer to drop serial/parallel ports for "USB only" and they stopped shipping floppy drives in like... 1990-something. Too tired to cite. Was considered ridiculous at the time. Meanwhile my brand-new work Dell still has a floppy drive, PS2, serial and parallel ports. And uses the freaking BIOS to boot.... OMG WTF FOR!

They're basically making the same call with optical disks. Their expectation is that by the time you might actually need BlueRay you'll just be delivering all you software over wireless. The iPad already does, and they're moving that way with the Mac as well (App Store for Mac).

As far as I can tell all BlueRay is good for is trying to convince me to re-buy all my DvDs (not going to happen) or to charge me more for the same movie (very rarely is DvD too "low res" FFS). Especially in the US, Apple's plan seems to be "Why would you go buy the BlueRay? Just grab it straight of iTunes without leaving the couch!

And if you think that Apple have no chance winning a war vs the movie houses, just remember who Disney's largest shareholder is... OLSH.
Last edited by knaughty on Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:56 pm

gibborim wrote:USB was a redefinition of how peripherals could and should be connected to your computer. It is highly fallacious to imply that Thunderbolt is to the rest of the field as USB was to all those monstrous pin connectors of yore.(1) The only thing Thunderbolt is good for right now would be outputting to a 2560x1440/1600 screen and Display Port CRUSHES](2) Thunderbolt at that. Being an Apple exclusive is good for nobody but Apple.(3) It stifles innovation of hardware that uses the standard because, quite frankly, it lacks market share and is guaranteed to lack that market share for at least a year.(4)


(1) ThunderBolt replaces (off the top of my head, and specifically for the consumer market): USB3, FireWire, DVI, DisplayPort, E-SATA, FibreChannel. Oh, and it requires no OS-level drivers, since it is (and presents as) PCI-E.

(2) Errr.... ThunderBolt includes, and is backwards compatible with, Display port. This is about as logical as claiming that USB1 crushes USB2 at driving the mouse!

(3) It's an Openish Intel standard, anyone using Intel chipsets gets it. The problem is that no other PC has the hardware and the OS from the same vendor, so Intel is expecting WinDell to take a year to get the arse in gear.

(4)You're aware that Apple is the number 1 laptop manufacturer and the number 2 desktop manufacturer? Toyota's market share and Apple's market share are quite similar, and in their respective markets they're number 1. Would you claim that a massive innovation that Toyota was rolling out is "Meaningless, because Toyota only have 10% of the market share!"

Typical nerd response to the iPod: Slashdot: Lame WTF is a "Nomad" anyway?

Palm CEO's response to the iPhone rumours.

For the last 10 or so years, every bet Apple has made has been a staggeringly monumental success. There's a reason they're worth more than Microsoft and Dell combined.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:54 am

(1) ThunderBolt replaces (off the top of my head, and specifically for the consumer market): USB3, FireWire, DVI, DisplayPort, E-SATA, FibreChannel. Oh, and it requires no OS-level drivers, since it is (and presents as) PCI-E.


Always with the drivers.

(2) Errr.... ThunderBolt includes, and is backwards compatible with, Display port. This is about as logical as claiming that USB1 crushes USB2 at driving the mouse!


Hrm, I should have searched the Thunderbolt documentation more thoroughly, the first thing I saw was 10gbit/sec out vs DPs 17gb/sec.

(3) It's an Openish Intel standard, anyone using Intel chipsets gets it. The problem is that no other PC has the hardware and the OS from the same vendor, so Intel is expecting WinDell to take a year to get the arse in gear.


Your response sounded silly and wrong, so I checked a bit. It looks like Apple actually had a hand in the developement of Thunderbolt and that is why they are getting an exclusive.

(4)You're aware that Apple is the number 1 laptop manufacturer and the number 2 desktop manufacturer? Toyota's market share and Apple's market share are quite similar, and in their respective markets they're number 1. Would you claim that a massive innovation that Toyota was rolling out is "Meaningless, because Toyota only have 10% of the market share!"


You are either making a very specious connection between largest single producer and OS market share, or you are being deliberately obtuse so you can have a fourth point. Aside from Apple's bottom line, it is meaningless that they are outselling any one of the fifteen Windows laptop makers. The amount of hardware in play with Thunderbolt support is extremely small and because it is exclusive with Apple for now, it will not gain the kind of traction it needs to get hardware companies really pushing development of components that support the standard. Unless the new standard is earth shatteringly amazing, which I assure you that a healthy dollop of more-faster is not, its rate of adoption is being hurt severely by exclusivity with a single manufacturer.

Ah, good old comparing Apples and Oranges. Oddly enough, doubling a data-rate is not analogous to Toyota doubling their gas mileage.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:14 am

Thunderbolt is cool because it puts PCIe on a cable, with a tiny controller. Nuff said. If you don't see the applications of this for portable computing then you aren't looking very hard.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Panzerdin » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:05 pm

knaughty wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Oh, and Thunderbolt is useless because it isn't any faster than USB 3 for practical purposes: only the very highest of high-end SSDs can actually read/write fast enough for anyone to notice a difference.


Typical WinTel bigot argument.

Macs suck because they don't have BlueRay / USB3, which are awesome! Firewire and USB2 simply don't cut it!

<Apple launches ThunderBolt, which kicks the shit out of USB3>

USB3 is clearly good enough! No one needs anything faster!

Any Windows technology that Macs are missing is always critically important. Any PC technology that Apple launch first (hello, USB?) is always beyond the bleeding edge and useless.

Obviously SSDs are going to remain slow and expensive forever. I mean, it isn't like Moore's law applies to flash chips.

Oh... wait... never mind.

In all honesty, Thunderbolt is a feature I agree with including on a mac. Similarly, I'm fully behind Apple in disregarding Blue-Ray drives (I myself don't have a CD-drive of any kind). My issue is simply that there doesn't seem to be much to choose between USB3 and Thunderbolt (they both offer very similar speeds, if memory serves), so it makes more sense to back the technology that's backwards compatible with something that's already very widespread.
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Panzerdin wrote:: a) doesn't exist; b) would cost me at least a grand more


Are you insane or simply incapable of using this thing the rest of use refer to as "logic"? You can't claim something doesn't exist and is more expensive, you just come across like a frothing WinTel fanboi.

I can however use the conditional tense. It doesn't exist, but if it did then it WOULD cost at least a grand more, based on the prices of similar macs.

And I'm not sure where the idea that Linux requires that one write one's own drivers came from.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:21 pm

Panzerdin wrote:And I'm not sure where the idea that Linux requires that one write one's own drivers came from.


Certainly not often, but I did have to do it on occasion.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:16 pm

Thunderbolt is display port plus pci-e, on a daisy-chain cable. What's not to love? As for "Apple only makes it useless" please recall that it was Apple's decision to go USB only that created a market large enough for USB peripherals to take off.

Apple users are almost by definition the high end of the market, they spend a ton of money on softest and peripherals. Thunderbolt is far more likely to be a success with Apple being first company mass-shipping than any other.

Macs actually had a working shareware market.... The mindset is different.

Shows up best in the smartphone software sales figures. Apple and Android now have roughly the same number of handsets in the field. A couple of companies who ship software across both platforms have released their sales figures. Sales on iOS are ten times the volume for a lot less testing effort.

Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:18 pm

Yeah, those graphics cards, we should talk about those.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:26 pm

I was debating on posting a "get back to the thread" reply about half a page ago, but I thought I'd just let the discussion evolve more
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:32 pm

knaughty wrote:Yeah, those graphics cards, we should talk about those.


Yea, it sounds like his work is providing machines to work on. He also seems to have some level of need for gaming hardware. He just finished school, so he is probably somewhere in the spectrum of poor.

Building a PC seems like a good choice. You can always make it into a Hackintosh if you decide OSX is the best thing ever at work.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:39 pm

I agree with Gibborim's advice too. If he is getting supplied a mac from work, there is no reason to get another mac for your house needs. Especially for a newly postgraduate student, who most likely cannot afford the premium.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:29 am

gibborim wrote: You can always make it into a Hackintosh if you decide OSX is the best thing ever at work.


Just make sure you buy the right hardware. OSX only supports stuff that Apple have shipped.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:56 pm

After crusading against the forces of the Macs, I come home today to find out that my GPU is somewhat fucked.

Some screen tearing in games now, an occasional stutter too. Run unigine and it just went ballistics on it.

Oh well, I was going to send the motherboard in for a replacement this month anyway, might as well send the GPU too.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:09 am

See, you have angered the Mac gods and they have smote thee with great smoting.

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:20 am

It just upsets me at times that I get unlucky at times with hardware... 570 are known to have bad VRM's. I'll just try and see if I can bargain OC.UK to send me a 580 (with me covering the extra $$)
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby tlitp » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:26 pm

laterna wrote:570 are known to have bad VRM's.

The reference design's VRM of both 570/580 is undersized (4+2 phases for 570, 6+2 phases for 580), go for custom implementations : Asus DirectCU II (both 570/580) or the upcoming Matrix Platinum (only 580), MSI Lightning (only 580), the upcoming Gigabyte Super Overclock (both 570/580).
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sat Apr 09, 2011 1:00 am

Never heard about the undersizing in phase voltage, but I know for a fact that 570/590 both have a history of bad VRM's...

Anyway, I've started my process of going down the long and lonely road of RMA's... hopefully I can convince eVGA to step me up to a 580
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby isiz » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:13 pm

So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Talaii » Sat Apr 09, 2011 7:54 pm

isiz wrote:So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?


OSX won't let you install unless it detects you are using an apple motherboard, basically. There are methods of getting around it, but it's a process more akin to rooting a phone than just installing an operating system.

I'm not sure how legal it is, but there are many sites dedicated to getting it working; but it is a lot more work than just "put in disk, install OS".
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:56 pm

isiz wrote:So, wow, I didn't expect to start a big Mac VS PC thread...

Anyway, it has been mentioned a few times in this thread that making a Mac partition on a PC would be illegal. Why is that? Is it just impossible to buy an OSX license w/o also buying a Mac attached to the license?

All new Macs come with the latest version of the OS. You can also buy OSX on it own - it's quite cheap in comparison to Windows - US$129 ($199 for a 5-pack which is exactly the same as the 1-pack.... Still sells well, apparently). You just can't legally install it on anything except a Mac: Apple's copyright and licence conditions prohibit installing OSX on anything except an Apple-manufactured computer.

And yes, it has been tested in court and was found to be valid.

In addition to the legal restriction, the only copy protection on the OSX DVDs is code to detect whether you're trying to install on an Apple manufactured PC. There's no serial codes, re-installation restrictions or tracking - Apple seem to have the opinion that all piracy-prevention crap does is annoy your paying customers while not preventing piracy. Even the "restore" CDs that come with new Macs can mostly be used as general purpose OS X installation CDs.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:32 am

knaughty wrote:
Panzerdin wrote:Oh, and Thunderbolt is useless because it isn't any faster than USB 3 for practical purposes: only the very highest of high-end SSDs can actually read/write fast enough for anyone to notice a difference.


Typical WinTel bigot argument.

lol, hypocrite much?

I love my MacBook Pro, I do have to run fusion for a few things though which is a pain. I doubt I'd buy a PC based laptop anytime soon though. In the laptop department, the MacBooks are decent buys because you can't as easily build your own laptop. Apple uses pretty good quality components, better than I'd trust from most PC manufacturers. At the desktop level though, they are pretty bad buys, you can likely build a PC with better specs for nearly half the cost.

My generation Macbook Pro does have a cooling problem and WoW is enough to get it running really hot. It's fairly rare that it would actually cause a problem though, and I believe that's been resolved with the current generation.


knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:11 am

Fridmarr wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.


Android 3.0's code is not being released for the foreseeable future.

Gates has always been the good guy. Most people just focus on the brutal, monopolistic business practices he used in order to make more money to give to charity/solve world problems.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:25 am

gibborim wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Android isn't even open anymore, once Google decided it should be closed.

Actually Android is still open, and I don't think Apple wants to get into a good corporate citizen argument with Google. Hell the last couple of years, Apple has made even Microsoft look like good guys.


Android 3.0's code is not being released for the foreseeable future.

Gates has always been the good guy. Most people just focus on the brutal, monopolistic business practices he used in order to make more money to give to charity/solve world problems.

It'll be released when it's ready.

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/ ... oment.html
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Koatanga » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:58 pm

It'll be released when it's ready.

That's what they said about Duke Nukem.
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