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Tying Vengeance to Expertise

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Flex » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:59 am

Tev wrote:
Flex wrote:
Tev wrote:You know, for the PvP issues, that could easily be solved by tying a good portion of damage that tanks do to getting hit or directly attacked.


Sounds like Vengeance.

Read more of my post, you'll see I was referring to abilities that activate on damage taken/attacks directed on the tank, not a stacking damage buff.


It isn't any different though. Tank damage is down in PvP if you don't attack them, vengeance or activated abilities.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:31 am

The problem that we're addressing is tanks equiping dps gear in pvp. Because they are in dps gear and taking more damage, venegeance stacks higher faster (which is supposed to be countered by the fact venegeance can be removed, but if you can't remove it, your out of luck). My suggestion is that tank damage is based off of abilities that trigger on hits received, and predominantly on tank stats (dodge/parry/etc.) so that while you would gain damage switching to dps gear, you would lose the chance to trigger your damage dealing abilities.

This would allow them to up tank damage without overpowering us in pvp, and then not have to overcompensate us with the venegence mechanic giving us such an insane amount of ap that threat becomes a faceroll after the first 20-30 sec of a fight.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby masterpoobaa » Thu Mar 31, 2011 7:41 pm

That would be good for heroics/normals too.

As vengance is tied to incomming damage, poorly geared tanks and bad pulls give them lots of nice vengance.
Good pulls done by properly geared/enchanted/gemmed tanks that rotate their cooldowns, stuns and interupts get alot less vengance.

How is that 'fair'?
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Tev » Fri Apr 01, 2011 4:52 am

That reminds me of the horrible rage/mana starvation that would occure in TBC, when tanks outgeared content. Do a heroic and you never had the resources to keep threat if you didn't overpull to an extreme.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby thegreatheed » Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:51 pm

All of these complex "fixes" are nonsense. They're overly complicated, and while they may fix the symptom of tanks not wearing ANY hit/exp, just curing the symptom for the sole purpose of curing the symptom doesn't motivate players properly.

Vengeance has the right set of priorities now, its cap is just too high. It scales with gear, as it caps at a % of your health. It just caps too high.

Simple fix-make vengeance works exactly as it does, but lower the cap to say half of what it is now.

This will still scale with gear.
This will also incentivize wise gearing choices. If you wear too little threat stats, you'll lose aggro, but if you're smartly geared and prepared, vengeance will make plenty of nice bonus threat.

Simple adjustments if future tuning is needed.

Just tune up or down the max health cap. That is all that is needed. No complex expertise or hit scaling, just fix vengeance (like I've been saying for 6 months).
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Meloree » Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:23 pm

thegreatheed wrote:All of these complex "fixes" are nonsense. They're overly complicated, and while they may fix the symptom of tanks not wearing ANY hit/exp, just curing the symptom for the sole purpose of curing the symptom doesn't motivate players properly.

Vengeance has the right set of priorities now, its cap is just too high. It scales with gear, as it caps at a % of your health. It just caps too high.


That is not, by any stretch, "all" that is wrong with Vengeance. Off the top of my head:

1) Early threat is double-RNG penalized with Vengeance. If you get a couple of "lucky" avoids early, your threat sucks, on top of hit/expertise issues. This is becoming more of an issue with good gear - to the point that I regularly turn around between abilities early in a pull in order to ensure I take a couple of nice big hits. Stupid behaviour to encourage.

2) It's inverse-scaling. How many times have we established that that's bad.

3) It's largely out of player control - outside of standing in fire, or turning around, you're at the mercy of RNG to get your Vengeance up high enough and fast enough.

I know what it's trying to address, and I guess it succeeds at that, but the implementation leaves much to be desired.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:37 am

Meloree wrote:That is not, by any stretch, "all" that is wrong with Vengeance. Off the top of my head:

1) Early threat is double-RNG penalized with Vengeance. If you get a couple of "lucky" avoids early, your threat sucks, on top of hit/expertise issues. This is becoming more of an issue with good gear - to the point that I regularly turn around between abilities early in a pull in order to ensure I take a couple of nice big hits. Stupid behaviour to encourage.

2) It's inverse-scaling. How many times have we established that that's bad.

3) It's largely out of player control - outside of standing in fire, or turning around, you're at the mercy of RNG to get your Vengeance up high enough and fast enough.

I know what it's trying to address, and I guess it succeeds at that, but the implementation leaves much to be desired.

So Much This!

Here's the basic problem Blizzard are trying to fix:

Tank threat doesn't scale with gear

While I agree with Mel that it was possible to hold threat if you were good, it was much harder in ICC than in Naxx_2.0

Basic problem is that tanks collect stamina & avoidance, DPS collect crit & haste. Der! Damage spec have their DPS scale a lot faster than tank DPS.

Solution: Scale tank DPS with tank stats.

Guess what?
Problem 1: Increasing avoidance and mastery (tank stats!) REDUCES your Vengeance! Fundamental problem
Problem 2: Vengeance stacks too slowly and sometimes doesn't max-stack. Tuning issue - Vengeance too small
Problem 3: 100% Vengeance TPS is retardedly high. Tuning issue - Vengeance too big

Solution: Vengeance should be a butt-fuck-simple Stam->AP conversion.

Just have it always on at 100%. Solves problem 1 & 2. Then tune down "100%" so that Problem 3 is minimised.

For PvP, either change the multiplier or make it removable. Speaking as someone who does Prot-PvP, I prefer the "tune multiplier" solution rather than having to put RF back on every time someone dispels it.

Basically, tanks are supposed to to 50-70% of DPS damage. Just do a Stam -> AP conversion that achieves that.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:57 am

The problem there is that stam -> AP is a linear scale, and won't match up with the scaling dps get from raw power and crit and haste. To work in all tiers it'd either be too high at low gear levels or too low at high levels.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:09 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The problem there is that stam -> AP is a linear scale, and won't match up with the scaling dps get from raw power and crit and haste. To work in all tiers it'd either be too high at low gear levels or too low at high levels.


Meh, so maybe it needs an offset.

Please note that right now we have a Stam -> AP conversion, it's just on the wrong end of some RNG.

Vengeance is currently (about?) 1 Stam = 1 AP once it's fully stacked.

Maybe it needs to be: AP = Stam - 3k, always on.

Stuffed if I know, but the current double-RNG lottery and "avoidance nerfs your threat" bullshit is crap. The current version of Vengeances gets worse as we gear up, at least my version would provide linear scaling.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby RedAces » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:01 am

hey,

knaughty wrote:Maybe it needs to be: AP = Stam - 3k, always on.


So everytime an encounter needs high AE-Damage, all dps switch to their tank specc and cleave the hell out of it?
Thats why Vengeance is what it's now...

(I'm not trying to demote your idea, but we had this type of problem in wrath heroics and Blizz wanted to fix this...)

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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby thegreatheed » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:25 pm

knaughty wrote:Tank threat doesn't scale with gear

While I agree with Mel that it was possible to hold threat if you were good, it was much harder in ICC than in Naxx_2.0

Basic problem is that tanks collect stamina & avoidance, DPS collect crit & haste. Der! Damage spec have their DPS scale a lot faster than tank DPS.

Solution: Scale tank DPS with tank stats.

Blizzard has said that they want tanks to use threat stats.
Blizzard has also said they want threat to matter.

Yes, tank dps needs to scale somehow with tank gear, but Blizzard wants tank gear to have some threat stats on it.

Guess what?
Problem 1: Increasing avoidance and mastery (tank stats!) REDUCES your Vengeance! Fundamental problem
Problem 2: Vengeance stacks too slowly and sometimes doesn't max-stack. Tuning issue - Vengeance too small
Problem 3: 100% Vengeance TPS is retardedly high. Tuning issue - Vengeance too big

I agree with Problems 1 and 3. Problem 2b (second half of 2) doesn't exist outside of farm content, in which case, wear some threat gear.

Solution: Vengeance should be a butt-fuck-simple Stam->AP conversion.

Just have it always on at 100%. Solves problem 1 & 2. Then tune down "100%" so that Problem 3 is minimised.
Again, Problem 2b doesn't exist outside of farm content. You missed a problem as well, Problem 4, according to Blizzard.

Problem 4: Tanks aren't wearing any threat stats.

Problem 2a can be mitigated by hit/exp gear, maybe not cap, but a reasonable amount of it, and that solves Problem 4 as well.

So again, Blizzard can achieve their goals, solving Problems 1 (threat stats taking the place of a crutch, overpowered vengeance), 2a, 3, and 4 (ignoring 2b since Blizzard doesn't balance around trivial content) by reducing current vengeance cap. Reducing the cap forces tanks to wear some threat (which is on lots of gear already) or they lose aggro. Problem solved, no new mechanics, easy balancing achievable by adjusting the cap, but never making it high enough that tanks forgo all threat stats.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby Malthrax » Sun Apr 03, 2011 12:26 pm

Bliz could also tune the encounters to not require 15+ DPS going "balls out" the microsecond the tank pulls... and if the DPS have to learn to hold back a few GCDs over the course of a 5 minute fight to NOT pull aggro, well that's a skill they need to develop.

DPS should be AS CONCERNED with not pulling aggro as the tank is with holding onto it.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:30 pm

thegreatheed wrote:Problem 4: Tanks aren't wearing any threat stats.


Do you mean Hit/Expertise or Crit/Haste?

Tanks are never going to wear crit/haste for progression content. Blizzard have acknowledged this.

Tanks have worn hit/expertise in the past, but Blizzard removed all the mechanics that drove us to do it. We never wore hit/expertise for the TPS, we wore it to deal with encounter mechanics:
  • Taunts used to miss. We wore hit where a failed taunt was a wipe (many encounters with tank swaps)
  • Parry haste used to be a significant issue. We used to wear it for big-hit, fast-swing bosses (EG: Brutallus), it was a reasonable mitigation stat.

Basic issue is that thanks have very nearly never worn TPS stats for progression content for the TPS boost. Maybe Reliquary of Souls if you didn't have a tankadin? We solved that one by having me be first tank.

Blizzard can want use to wear hit/expertise as much as they like. But unless going in with 0/0 is going to kill the tank, we won't care what they want.

I find it terribly unlikely they'll go back to the old mechanics. Hello, Glyph of Taunt Not Missing....
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:45 pm

So what now?

Tie vengance directly to strength instead?
Better IMHO than tying it to stamina, as your vengance will vary considerably depending on if you have a low stam/high mitigation build vs a pure stam build.

We don't stack strength, so it should be pretty easy to work out how much we will have for each tier of gear, and thus what scaling factor to use.
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Re: Tying Vengeance to Expertise

Postby lythac » Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:37 am

masterpoobaa wrote:So what now?

Tie vengance directly to strength instead?
Better IMHO than tying it to stamina, as your vengance will vary considerably depending on if you have a low stam/high mitigation build vs a pure stam build.

We don't stack strength, so it should be pretty easy to work out how much we will have for each tier of gear, and thus what scaling factor to use.


Tie vengeance to average ilvl. One issue is raid buffs won't effect it, which may be a good or bad thing.
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