Graphics Card Question

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Levantine » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:51 am

I never understood the trouble people have with blue screens due to their Windows. Mine's only ever died when I did something dumb like not notice the fan on my graphics card breaking because it was ancient. Never had an actual problem with it like I have with OSX. Maybe it's just the Uni macs themselves being fucked. My home computer is better for all the design stuff I do except for the average screen which I'm just too lazy to replace.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 4:58 am

My guess is they must have fixed the BlueScreen shit in the last ten years, which what, roughly the period you've been out of short pants?

This crap used to be so bad that Bill himself got a bluescreen one time doing a presentation at MicrosoftWorld or WTF the call their annual show.

No idea what your Uni macs are crap. Uni students, probably.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby Levantine » Sun Apr 03, 2011 5:01 am

They're supposed to be brand new, but yet, they're still shit. D:

Give me some credit, it's been at least 12 years.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sun Apr 03, 2011 7:42 am

BSOD's had stopped after XP came out, unless you are doing something tricky. The only time I get BSOD'd now , is if I overclock wrongly.

I picked up my XP box at the end of 2002. Its now 2011 and it still runs, at my parents house, with no issues at all. My laptop, on vista has never ever done a BSOD. My current rig, gave me a BSOD when I set my processor to boot at 8ghz. Thats all. No bsod's for the past 9 years. I still feel macs don't justify the price tags they cover.

The 27.5 inch apple is 1700quid. The respective dell ultrasharp screen is 700 quid. That leaves me 1000 pounds to make up for a computer better than a i5 2.8ghz, with 1333Mhz 4 GB RAM and 1 terra drive. I'm pretty sure its not as small as a difference you make it to be. Hell, I can make you an i5 2500k, UD5, 560 8gig ram rig for that much propably.

What I'm saying, I can understand certain people going for macs because they feel that it is absolutely needed for their job. Those people are 0.05% of the apple buyer base. The rest are simply people who fall to marketing trends....

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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:41 am

knaughty wrote:Interestingly, I've been using an XP box at work for the last two years and it's never blue-screened. Fucking record.


I have not seen a software based BSoD since ME. The only hardware based ones I've seen were a bricked harddrive and a graphics card with multiple bad bits in its ram.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby isiz » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:17 am

So the reasons I would like to go with a Mac are:

1. Can buy W7 for $15 w/ student discount, so dual-booting is cheap.

2. I'm not a comp-sci major and have no idea what I'm doing when I install new hardware (but I do have a couple of comp-sci friends and my dad works on designing circuit-boards, could always ask for help).

3. Been using a Mac for the last 4 years, haven't used any Windows OS since XP. When I go to the library to print, the W7 interface kinda confuses me (Where's the damn "my computer" button?!).

4. My current back-up external HD does not work with Windows. I use it as a TimeMachine device, which is very helpful, and I don't know of any (cheap) Windows alternatives to TimeMachine.

5. Mac OS is just more user friendly imo. It pretty much hand-holds me through updates and installs (which I definitely need). I also really like the interface (Can't live without Spaces. Does W7 have Spaces?) I also like not really having to worry about viruses.

6. I do have some (sort of non-essential) programs that are Mac only.



Now this summer I go on internship and then after that I graduate. The internship site provides me with a Mac Pro (the desktop, not the laptop) to work with and if they do end up hiring me they supply all their designers with a Macbook Pro. The laptop is plenty good enough for design work.

I suppose I could just get a Windows machine for home. Are there any good ones out there that can play stuff like Rift that are under $700-$800? I don't want to have to put one together (other than maybe installing a better graphics card) because then it just turns into a big hassle for me to make it all work together.

edit: I already have an LG Flatron W2240 monitor, so I'm just talking about the tower.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:55 pm

laterna wrote:What I'm saying, I can understand certain people going for macs because they feel that it is absolutely needed for their job. Those people are 0.05% of the apple buyer base. The rest are simply people who fall to marketing trends....


This is a common statement from PC nerds and WinTel commentators, I think it misses the point.

For a "normal person" every PC you can buy (other than a NetBook) is fast enough. Every Mac comes with "enough" RAM and "enough" HDD space.

The vast majority of the marketplace are no longer buying their computers based on $/MHz.

I'll use a car analogy: Here's what the PC Industry sell:
Image
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Image
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When you look at price vs performance, all of these cars are unbeatable. The Caterham 7 you can even buy as a kit and build yourself.

Here's what people actually buy:

Image
Image
Image
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Arguing that your WinTel PC is better price-performance entirely misses the point

Go look at car ads. They're not sold on 0-60 times. They're sold on features, safety, comfort and value (not the same thing as cheap, or people would buy a hell of a lot more Chinese cars).

PC "enthusiasts" are Ricers/Drag-racers arguing about which Turbo is best in their drift car. No one outside the "scene" goddamn cares, they want a reliable hatchback/sedan/SUV with comfy seats, lots of airbags and cruise control.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:01 pm

Poor analogy knaughty, because unlike cars, the applications on computers require more processing power over time. Whereas roads, not so much :p

Also, look at it the other way. Even now, when I'm still an undergraduate engineer, using the uni computers to work with solidedge, matlab, etc it takes a while to calculate some stuff. Running an electromagnetic model with extreme amounts of precision based on triangles/surface, the computer literaly crashes outright. It takes me 10 seconds to run the same calculations on my main rig.

And yet again, you are right in the essense that I'm comparing a top of the line, to an apple. Still, can you not get a similar computer for less money? And trust me, there are so many people out there who just want a pc that is the best for their budget. Its just how things work. If you, as a father of a 15 year old say, "ok I'll put aside 1000 quid for my sons computer" you want to walk in a store and buy the most kickass pc your 1000 pounds can get you. How do you think you're going to feel if you buy a 1000 pounds mac ( do those even exist ?) and a year down the line, your son can't play a game he wants, or he tries to run something that takes horsepower and the mac just outright fails?

Worst case scenario, why don't you just build a PC, partition the drive and knock an OS X on one, and W7 on the other one? still cheaper, you get all the features, without the $$$ premium
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:12 pm

laterna wrote:Poor analogy knaughty, because unlike cars, the applications on computers require more processing power over time. Whereas roads, not so much :p


You're looking at the wrong era.

Back in the 20's and 30's the roads were getting better - sealed surfaces, more lanes, eventually highways. Cars advanced & improved, taking advantage of the improved conditions. Now we're at the point where every new car can easily break the national speed limit in any country that has one. Performance is no longer important other than to enthusiasts.

I've driven two of the world's fastest cars from 1931: A Speed Six Bentley and a Bugatti Type 51. Both are substantially faster than you need on modern roads despite being 80 years old.

We are rapidly approaching the same point for desktops. I used to buy multi-million dollar computers. That stuff is now mostly done by stuff that costs tens of thousands (cluster computing on virtual hardware on cheap-ass blades vs Super-Computers. Lose a few zeros).

Go look at what people upgrade cycle looks like compared to a decade back. Go look at what Crysis-2 renders in real-time.

Seriously... what do you need more power for? If you need more power than a standard PC, then you're actually in the workstation market.
laterna wrote:Worst case scenario, why don't you just build a PC, partition the drive and knock an OS X on one, and W7 on the other one? still cheaper, you get all the features, without the $$$ premium

(1) It's not legal
(2) It's not supported
(3) What parts of "I want something that just works" and "I value my time at more than $0/hr" are you not getting?
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:30 pm

2. I'm not a comp-sci major and have no idea what I'm doing when I install new hardware (but I do have a couple of comp-sci friends and my dad works on designing circuit-boards, could always ask for help).


Most CompSci has nothing to do with hardware, so being a CS major isn't really a magic, computer building bullet. Your dad sounds like an Electrical Engineer, he could probably handle it.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:45 pm

I'm not agreeing with your 2 arguments because that would be true 10 years ago. Right now, if I windows wants to update, I click update, go get a glass of water and its done.

Also, you can never say you don't need more horsepower. And I'm not just talking about workstations. My dad does only internet browsing. He uses a Pentium D, 1giga worth of ram 8 year old pc. I use a 2 thousand pounds worth of PC because I need it sometimes. My 570 has trouble rendering Crysis 1 at max. It drops to 20 fps at times.

The thing is, you're arguing over your time's worth and making sure you pc works.

If you go from the lower end of the spectrum, to the higher end (my dad to workstations for example) you can see that only an extremely small amount of people have the need for Macs. Do you need a mac for your job? if you then yes, go for it. If not, then don't buy one because its a trend. Seriouly, I feel like i'm a time traveller with what I'm hearing. If this was 2000 maybe, I'd say you were right. But as it stands, windows is just as stable as os X.

What exactly do you see that makes you say that W7 takes forever to work with ? Apart from the fact that you're using an XP machine with god knows how old hardware?

Are you worried about catching viruses from windows and not getting any from macs? Not to mention that mac viruses are not as non-existant as 2000, its not so hard to handle them in windows 7 either. Hardware related, its exactly the same propability to break something. Your time? I leave my own pc running almost indefinetly, restarting it only when windows need an update. I come into the house, shake the mouse and I'm ready to go. How is that different from your apple?

What it boils down to. You are an informed user. You have your reasons to use a Mac. I'm not saying YOU shouldn't use a mac because your reasons are wrong. I'm saying the 20year old hipster who spends x amount on an macbook to sit at starbucks shouldn't buy one.

I have qualms for people using macs when they don't need it due to their price premium. Really, I might not be an comp tech guy, but I advice a large amount of people on what to buy. The number 1 question is "do you REALLY need this?". Do you need the 27" screen of an apple? If you are buying it for web browsing, you don't even need anything OS X offers. I like OS X more but I don't need it for my job? well just partition it? its illegal? How many torrents have you downloaded?

Meh, it might be me being a narrowminded person. But the next time I see that particular elec engineer guy, in the library, with his ipod nano, ipad2, macbook pro come to me and tell me he bought all of them because the "just work". tip : he uses the library computers to run solid edge because he had problems with it and his macbook. I run it on my laptop and my desktop.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby laterna » Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:53 pm

gibborim wrote:
2. I'm not a comp-sci major and have no idea what I'm doing when I install new hardware (but I do have a couple of comp-sci friends and my dad works on designing circuit-boards, could always ask for help).


Most CompSci has nothing to do with hardware, so being a CS major isn't really a magic, computer building bullet. Your dad sounds like an Electrical Engineer, he could probably handle it.


I'm an EEENG as well, and they don't actually teach it to us. Granted we learn about computer architecture, and almost all of my class knows how to build a pc, we weren't taught about it at any point.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:01 pm

knaughty wrote:We are rapidly approaching the same point for desktops. I used to buy multi-million dollar computers. That stuff is now mostly done by stuff that costs tens of thousands (cluster computing on virtual hardware on cheap-ass blades vs Super-Computers. Lose a few zeros).


I agree that we have found much more efficient methods for super computing. The big issue is that programmers are unreal lazy about making efficient software for consumer computing. If the computing resources are there, they will use them and rely on them being there even if they could have done the same thing with less resources.

As long as hardware keeps improving at a rate in tune with Moore's law, consumer programmers will continue to make programs that guzzle computer resources to match.

Programmer used to be a skill based class, now it is all just facerolling.
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby gibborim » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:13 pm

laterna wrote:I'm an EEENG as well, and they don't actually teach it to us. Granted we learn about computer architecture, and almost all of my class knows how to build a pc, we weren't taught about it at any point.


My point is more that in the Ven Diagram of Electrical Engineers and people who could assemble their own computer, the EE circle should be almost completely within the 'can assemble a computer' circle. Or, they should easily be able to learn it quickly. Not to insult any CS majors that are floating around here, but engineers are going to generally be of a much higher caliber techno-nerd.

What are you looking at as a discipline? VSLI, power, signal, communications?
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Re: Graphics Card Question

Postby knaughty » Sun Apr 03, 2011 10:59 pm

In other news, I'm even grumpier than usual because this isn't a goddamn cold, it's double-bloody-pneumonia.

No wonder I feel so incredibly shit.

IT Security note: I do IT Security Risk Management for one of the top-10 most profitable banks in the world. Our CERT team sits one row of cubes over from me. Do not claim that Windows is "just as secure as Mac OS X" it just makes you look like a retarded Windows bigot. You can debate reasons for the enormously higher practical / real-world security of OS X vs Windows as much as you want, but the fact that there have been like, 3 OS X Worms does not it "just as bad as Windows".

Here's the real reason:

Image

It doesn't matter that Vista is roughly as secure as OS X (which it more or less is), the problem is that half the world is still running XP and while Apple have.. 20%? of the US market they're weak in many other regions, so they're like 5-10% overall.

Crooks go after:
(1) Easy target
(2) Volume target

Thus: Macs not targeted.

Thus: Macs have more practical security.
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